Do You Know What Channukah Is?




An excerpt from the writings of Rabbi Samson Hirsch, of blessed memory:

Pages 200-201 - Chanukah represents the clash of two doctrines, two views, two civilizations, capable of molding, training and educating those who until this very day compete for the mastery of the world. Hellenism and Judaism: These are the two forces whose effect upon the nations mark the historical development of mankind, and which surfaced in Judea for the first time in the days of Mattathias. Hellenism and Judaism: when examined in depth they are the two leading forces which today again are struggling for mastery in the Jewish world. (He wrote this in the 1800's in Germany)

There is an old prophecy, to our knowledge the oldest prophetic vision: "God will open the mind of Japhet, and He shall dwell in the tents of Shem" (Genesis 9,27). If we grasp the meaning of the prophecy, it proclaims nothing less than that God will give Japhet mastery over the minds of men (יפת* is the hiphil* of *פתה) but only Shem will build homes where God's glory will find its dwelling place on earth. Japhet blossomed into יון* - the Greeks, the Hellenistic nations, whose mastery of all that is gracious and beautiful conquered the hearts of men. Shem blossomed into עבר*, the Hebrew nation which erected homes for God, and became the foundation of God's holy Law, of right and love. Both were charged to cover the animal nakedness of mankind, and were called upon to elevate man to rise in the image of God. Both were charged with educating Ham who personifies sensuality. Ham had seen his father's nakedness and told his brothers about it. Shem and Japhet took the cloth and, walking backwards, covered their father's nakedness. The prophet accompanies this scene with these significant words: "Blessed be the God of Shem, may Canaan (Ham's son) become his servant. God will open the mind of Japhet but will dwell in the tents of Shem. And may Canaan be a servant to them" (Genesis 9,26-27). The history of the world to this day is a fulfillment of these prophetic words. On the stage of history only two elements have appeared to dominate man's intellectual development and actions: Hellenism - the blossoming of the spirit of Japhet, which found expression in Greek culture, and Judaism - the spirit of Godly teaching lived and fulfilled by Israel.

It appears, however, that only the blessing, the victory and the fulfillment of the perception of God as proclaimed by Shem would prevail. The domination of minds by Japhetic culture would only be the groundwork for the houses of men into which the God portrayed by Shem would move and find his place on earth. At first minds would be receptive to Japhetic culture and then Shem's God will enter into the tents of man. While all others are subdued by Japhet, Shem will overcome Japhet.

(This paragraph is directly relevant for Christianity)

Page 207 - Japhetic culture offers man his own pleasure, his own sense of grace and beauty as the motive and measure for his own perfection; but it also leaves him subject to human shortcomings and weaknesses, errors, and delusions. The opposite delusive belief [Christianity] denies the possibility of man's ennoblement ["original sin"] and robs life on earth of all justification and happiness. The Law of the God of Shem, however, establishes God's will as the motive and measure of man's ennoblement. It teaches him what is pure and impure, refined and unrefined, holy and profane, that which pleases God and that which displeases Him. It demonstrates to man the boundary between freedom and servitude, shows him where freedom ends and subjugation begins in the spiritual-material, divine-earthly human being, and admonishes him: for the sake of your God be pure, be holy; for the sake of your God take hold of your life and dedicate and sanctify all of your earthly existence; ban all that is impure, unclean, unholy, contrary to freedom, displeasing to God, unworthy of man in the context of his spiritual and physical life, so that your surroundings be holy and pleasing to God, that God will dwell with you and accompany you, bless you and grant you good fortune, and that He shall not see in your the animal nakedness that is displeasing to God and unworthy of man, and abandon you. ונמשמרתה בכל דבר רע-כי ה' אלקיך מתהלך בקרב מחנך...והיה מחניך קדוש ולא יראה בך ער ותת (דבר ושב מאחריך (Deut. 23, 10,15)

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· יפת Yafet
· Hiphil – a Hebrew grammatical form
· פתה Fetah – an opening
· יון Yavan – Japhet’s grandson, forerunner of Greek people and religion; Hebrew word for “Greece.”
· עבר Ever – Shem’s great grandson, Abraham’s great, great, great, great, great, great grandfather and teacher.


Excellent genealogical chart from www.timelessmyths.com (click on picture to enlarge)

From African Royalty to Judaism -


“The café owner has been eavesdropping. Now he interrupts us. He wears a baseball cap with the letters USA, but his London accent gives him away. ‘I am a convert also,’ he says, ‘and we converts see things so much clearer than you confused Jews from birth. Perhaps there should be a special prayer in the morning where we thank God for having made us gentiles who had to convert .’”



*You can find the rest of the recording at www.youtube.com under the keywords "Rabbi Natan Gamedze," or "From African Royalty to Judaism." Enjoy!

Monotheism is the Height of Human Evolution -

The evolutionary argument is that development occurs from a simple state to a more complex state. Not only that, but the inherent implication in the evolutionary argument is that when and if a species survives, its survival is due to its development of one or another beneficial characteristic. The point of this post is not to talk about whether evolution occurred or not, although the scientific record matches quite well with the Torah's, but rather to show how the peak of evolution is exemplified with monotheism.

A quick summary: G-d creates existence, the universe, Earth, life on Earth, and then Man. With Man He creates the ability to perceive Him. After Adam and Eve eat of the fruit, they no longer understand things to be "true" or "false" but rather "right" and "wrong," -- value judgments, and subjectivity becomes the prime directive of humanity's paradigm. This leads to humanity's creation and invention of all types of ideologies, which first manifested themselves as variant forms of polytheism, i.e., subjective forms of the Man-G-d relationship. Hundreds of years passed after the abatement of the flood before Abraham was successfully able to "re-piece" G-d's Existence together for the world. Abraham's true understanding of G-d, which culminated in a revelation, ended an era of unchallenged polytheism; it marked the end of a repeating cyclical process and the beginning of a generally ascending cycle. Therefore, once Man was really Man, which the Torah defines as a being with a soul (us), he ceased to go through physical evolutions and began to go through mental, intellectual, moral, and spiritual evolutions. Monotheism was the evolutionary peak of mental, intellectual, moral, and spiritual evolution - there was none higher and all were lower. As is, the "class GPA" of the world would rise due to this merited revelation; it would bring up the consciousness of the rest humanity.

Post-monotheism; Atheism

Can we not say that atheism is the logical conclusion of monotheism? If the process of one replacing many was a revelation of truth, can we not say that the process of none replacing one is a further development of truth? No, we cannot. The reason being is that atheism does not afford humanity something more than monotheism. Monotheism rejected the polytheisms of the day in favor of a theistic understanding that a unified reality, with the One G-d, was the only true one; this was synonymous with absolute morality. The polytheists also had somewhat developed systems of values, ethics, and morals, but they waiver in relation to their instable and changing gods. G-d is Stable and the system of values, ethics, and morality instructed by Him is unchanging. Atheism's system of values, ethics, and morals is non-existent, as is their god. The subjective idea of atheism is a world void of implicit and inherent truths and morals; rather, in that world, one must extract truth and morality from the surrounding culture, a compass incapable of such a task. Culture has no interest in truth, and therefore cannot define falsehood, and so convenience and inconvenience replace these items respectively. It is not a violation of any inherent truth of human value to murder people, rather it should not be done because it is invconvenient to live in a society where people are free to end the lives of others. A society so morally irresolute must resort to replacing "falsehood" with the word "incovenient." There are several people in society who are prepared to tolerate the inconvenience of killing people if that's all it really is. As society becomes more silent, the murderers (rapists, cheaters, corrupters, etc...) become more emboldened. As the void becomes larger, the behaviors that potentially fill it become more variant. What we see is, through atheism, a return to a polytheistic-like world. The only difference is that the murderers murder to please themselves, not the gods.

There is an even more striking similarity; in an atheistic world, the obsession with the gods is still current- it seems that the void of morality, ethics, and values has not filled the void of the human need for the spiritual, and so many, if not all, types of spirituality are in demand. For example: wicca, the simplistic and superficial revival of ancient polytheistic religions, mystical trinkets such as tarot cards, shopping aisle astrology, and pseudo-psychological dream books, and of course new age spirituality.

The difference however is that the polytheists actually believed in these things and to a degree developed and organized them; today's "pop polytheism" is entirely external and superficial, not able to touch on the core of the way polytheists actually viewed the world 3,000 years ago and more. As a result, godless ideologies, religions actually, have developed, many of them humanitarian and social in essence. Valiant and noble causes, such as saving the environment, eradicating war, toppling injustice, and bringing and end to sexual oppression, start where religion ends. The people involved in these activities are fully engaged and embracing of the ideology of whatever group they have joined to the point where it ignites the spirituality within them and they become full of motivation and elation; the result is a strange and diluted form of worship. The imprint of religion is apparent even in these in that a few people, usually leaders, are seen as patriarchs or matriarchs of the movement and the rest of the people are disciples. The cause becomes universal in scope and the person is ready to dedicate the whole of his being to it. The cause or the objective goal of grandeur itself becomes the god, the object of devotion. However, no such god really exists, no command other than some loosely-composed internal drive to make something in the world better or perhaps to leave behind a vestige of immorality, completely fueled by self-initiation, and devotion fails as quickly as the whim flails.

But atheism facilitates the emergence of real evil. At any moment that the void is so large that anything can fit inside, with so many unchallenged acts of immorality, that any given act of "super destruction" can occur, and the previously immoral relativists, now suddenly awake to the possibility that evil exists, challenge it. However, one cannot develop an internal and composite perspective on morality overnight, and those who challenge it too are the products of years, if not decades or generations, of loosened moral fiber. Therefore, their judgment has become skewed by years of exposure to the irresoluteness of their culture and they, like most people, even those opposite to them, have lost the right to be the champions or torch-bearers of any ethical or moral mantle. Further, why should any maniac heed the moral urgings of the populace when they previously consumed immorality like voracious wolves? Will they now be hypocritical? If they believe in nothing, then they have not the right, but the ability, to say nothing. In the end, only the monotheists have room to speak and only they have the power to resist anything, for it was they who warned against evil when the stakes were still low. It is better to listen to the war drums before they become soaked in blood.

Orthodox Judaism and Intellectual Independence -

Intellectual independence got me here, so why shouldn't it be something that I keep? First of all, I am no Abraham figure, I did not derive the existence of G-d or that the Torah exists through my sheer ability and toil in the nature of all that exists, as did Abraham. Rather, I live in a post-revelation period in which G-d has already revealed the Torah and therefore I am allowed to simply latch on to it. Nevertheless, in what I retrospectively call a secular Jewish upbringing, I had to go through a long series of philosophizing and thinking about the things around me in order to understand that G-d indeed existed (although I always had in inkling feeling that He did) and that His existence necessitated the adherence to His commandments. I cannot say, however, that in that oh-so-Abrahamic way I reached these conclusions on my own; no way! I went to a Conservative Jewish school until I was in 6th grade and learned much about Judaism and G-d there. After that "break away" from it (my parents put my sister and I in a public school for a variety of reasons), my interest in G-d and spirituality remained, although my formal understanding of organized religion deteriorated to the point where by high school I had absolutely no idea that two such things could have any possible relationship. I continued to dabble in books on Jewish spirituality, and I found one packet giving a simple summary of Kabbalah, and included the story of the four great Rabbi's who each studied it, with Rabbi Akiva being the only one to safely emerge. My point is that I, in this post-revelation age, had many signs pointing me to the right way. These things can definitely be considered revelations, but the kinds that G-d allows to people like me in this day and age.

Years later (2001) when I became an Orthodox Jew, which I saw as nothing more or less than an acceptance of the natural order by which G-d had created the world, the intellectual independence and desire to search and understand did not peter away. However, the dynamics between free and unrestricted thinking juxtaposed within a doctrinal religious framework was an entirely new experience for me. I am quite convinced that every ba'al t'shuva and convert to Judaism experience this internal tension. Further, I am also convinced that the quality of their experience as a Jew will be largely based on how well they can find the underlying unity and harmony between intellectual freedom and religious doctrine. I can accurately say that this, among many other things, has highlighted my wading into the world of Torah.

One major way that I found how to internalize and make sense of this was to understand that doctrines were products of intellectual thought. They are not dogmatic; if one rejects a doctrine simply because it is a doctrine, he has not bothered to understand the internal and external logic of such a thing. From the outside what seems to be a contradiction in terms, was to understand the process that created Judaism. Abraham himself had to toil and find the proper Divine philosophy, and to extract his mind from the functioning ways of the world around him, yet not annihilating his place within it. Once he arrived at the perfect reasoning (as perfect as a man can), G-d decided that it was the right time to reveal Himself to him. Through Abraham's reasoning and through G-d's revelation to Abraham, the Covenant between G-d and us was forged.

Our tradition calls G-d "the G-d of Abraham," and so in order to cleave myself onto Judaism, I first had to try to grasp and understand "the G-d of Abraham." Once I was able to flush, to the degree that was safe and possible, i.e., without harming my sanity and emotional well-being, the ideas of the world around me, I was able to slowly begin trading them for the ideas of Judaism, i.e., the ideas of "the G-d of Abraham." It is important to say that I did not go through a complete overhaul of the content in my head; the instruments of perception inside must remain - it is the ideas that must change. Further, many ideas have within them pieces of truth, and therefore the idea as a whole itself cannot be thrown out, but rather, the pieces that are false. This is why the ba'al t'shuva process needs to be slow, at least from a perspective of understanding what one is doing. On the other hand, it cannot be too slow where a person becomes immobile and stagnant - part of the wonder of growth is the slight discomfort felt by standing in a new place.

In this way was I able to reconcile for myself the so-called paradox of free thought and religious doctrine; what we now call "doctrines" in Judaism were at the beginning of the Covenant products of Abraham's intellectual sojourns. Later, G-d wrote them in stone, as it were, with the Giving of the Torah on Mt. Sinai, a direct line and relationship between Abraham and Moses and these items became our commandments. Therefore, accepting the religious doctrines of Judaism is an acceptance of the intellectual sojourns of Abraham that led to G-d making the Covenant. Suffice it to say that nobody has the ability to internalize an intellectual item without trying to understand it. Understanding, therefore, is the key to Judaism, but on the other hand, one should not neglect a thing until he understands it; we can feel safe with G-d that adhering to a commandment will only lead us to good places.

Shomer Negiah

Shomer means "one who gaurds" and negiah means "touch." In modern Jewish usage, the phrase "shomer negiah" is used as an adjective, i.e., "I am shomer negiah," I gaurd my touch. Shomer negiah is a Rabbinic ordinance derived from the Be'oraita mitzvah (Written Torah commandment) not to engage in sexual activity before marriage. A Rabbinic ordinance has the clout of a Written Torah commandment, for it was derived from the Oral Law, the Torah she'be'al peh (the Torah passed down by speaking). In non-Jewish philosophies, shomer negiah can be accurately understood as a religious doctrine.

Shmira negiah, or shomer negiah, was, I believe, the third Jewish doctrine that I accepted; the first two were Shabbat and kashrut, although I only kept those to degrees at first. Being shomer negiah was a tough battle for me; although I was never "wild with the ladies" before I became observant, I was not as modest with them as I would have liked. My interest in women was flying high and I was at a peak time in my life, not to mention living with roommates, to be involved in the ventures of women. The external battle was simply not to have physical contact with women, but the internal battle was to change the way I perceived them, for to refrain from physical contact without an internal transformation of thought would be close to impossible and foolish. Earlier in my observance I deemed it silly when my friend Darron, also an observant Jew, told me that speaking to women too much should be avoided. At this juncture in time I figured the best way to approach shmira negiah was to start by cutting out the amount of time I spoke with women. What this meant was a serious curbing of the amount of flirting I did, which was not ridiculously high, but nevertheless, it existed. Slowly, the external effort to speak with women less created an internal response; every single attractive woman did not exist for a man's satisfaction. Gradually, I began to see women as human beings independent of their being attached to a sexual status, and therefore, notions of attractiveness became less of a factor in judging a woman. This process occurred over a long time, probably six months to a year, until I felt that I had reached a certain level of natural comfort with the concept of shmirah negiah. Being shomer negiah also means not seeking out romantic situations with women, for they lead to physical contact, and so on.

Touching a woman goes beyond just in romantic situations; many Jews also do not shake hands, for example, with the opposite sex - the concept is applied consistently. There are Jews, however, who shake a person's of the opposite sex hand in order to avoid embarassing them, although I prefer not to. Standing outside of their physical reach is usually a good non-chalant way to accomplish this. After this process, probably about one year, I decided that I was ready to date. I began to see a newly-observant woman whom I had already known for one year, and we dated for seven months, as shomer negiah Jews. We began to speak about getting engaged (seven months is relatively long for Jewish couples), but things did not go as planned and we eventually broke up. I plan this year, G-d willing, on beginning to look again.

To conclude, Judaism and intellectual independence have a seat right next to each other as long a person a) is endowed with free will and b) is able to utilize it. What better expression of a person's free will other than to use it better himself? Fleeting joy can only bring moments of joy, but the investment in joy, likened to a plant in a garden, brings a more permanent edifice of joy in this world, and of course, you knew I was going to say this, in the next. There are many concepts in Judaism for one to accomplish; they are never-ending.

To conclude, in a rational age, is it really rational to say that intellectual independence is an anathema to organized thought?

The Atheist in Me -

Many years ago, before I was even aware that there was such thing as a commandment-oriented way for Jews to live, my spiritual and emotional life were going through a violent turmoil. It was during this phase of my life in which I dabbled in several different philosophies of how one should live - only two made my list of actual potentials; Christianity and atheism. When I now realize just how different Christianity and atheism are, I basically can't understand how I considered either this one or that one - how could I have been satisfied with two different paradigms so different from each other? It would have made more sense if I had found favor in either one system or another which bore similarities discernible to the eye, but what discernible similarities could those two have had for me to actually group them together? Never in my spiritual path did I even consider Islam, Buddhism, or a similar path; Christianity and atheism spoke the most loudly and most clearly to me.

There was a certain philosophical acuteness that I found in both of them, and I will attempt to briefly summarize just what was the nature of that acuteness was.

The Christian Period

The first thing I must mention about my, what was a relatively short-lived but nagging, interest in Christianity stemmed from a deep lack of knowledge of Judaism. It was clear to me most of my life that I was a spiritual person, i.e., a person interested in "the other side," and on top of this I really enjoyed intellectual stimulation. Judaism didn't offer me any spiritual or intellectual stimulation; by that point in time in my life I was almost totally alienated from it and from other Jews. To me, Judaism was either something to ignore, or if I had to, which with to disagree. Suffice it to say that I knew nothing more about Christianity than I did about Judaism; my spark of interest in Christianity did not stem from a knowledge about Judaism that I felt somehow completed it, but rather from it being able to fill the void of my Judaism. Christianity was the best candidate for that at that point in my life for one basic reason: the way it was presented to me. I was eighteen years old at that point in my life and I was taking a general education class at the community college which I attended; the class was "Old Testament" and a pastor taught it. I was fascinated by the topic - I knew it then and I know it now - it was a fascination with my Jewishness, which my parents had helped maintain alive in me (and my sister) by keeping whatever traditions alive they could. Not to mention, the frequent trips to Israel to visit our family also worked in keeping us connected. I understand now that, judging by my glancing over at Christianity, visits to Israel could only go so far in keeping me close to Judaism; that I was far from it is the proof in the pudding.

I would have hour-long talks with the pastor/teacher after class, who of course, taught the class from a Christian perspective, i.e., that everything led up to Jesus, and would steer our personal talks in a way that would get me to budge towards Christianity. I responded with rebuttals to everything, buy my disgraceful knowledge about Judaism, even the basics, allowed him to back me into intellectual corners and dilemma's to which I had no answer. After a semester I was secretly pondering if perhaps Jesus was really the Messiah. It filled me with a great fear, not the fear of going to Hell, which I didn't understand, but the fear that I and my entire people, my family, and the State I so loved were wrong all along. I remember imagining my family in Israel and their response to the news of my choice, and that I would feel obligated not to tell them about Judaism (I was very idealistic), but about Christianity. The obligation and the knowledge that I would be an outcast filled me with fear, but the fear invoked excitement and pushed me onwards. After a short while my musings about Christianity died, not because I was able to prove them wrong, but because my fear had so shaken and overwhelmed me (again, I was emotionally distraught at this point in my life) that it is almost as if I shut down in order not to let in what I was not able to ward off. The only thing that I considered to be positive about Christianity was that it would make me different, i.e., from my family, but that in and of itself says nothing about Christianity itself. Obviously, it was not enough of a driving factor to make me interested, and besides, I was years away from being able to genuinely understand spirituality, theology, and religion. Thank G-d I "short-circuited" and never went down the paths of Christianity.

The Atheistic Period

Since Christianity couldn't be right, because I wouldn't allow it to be, and because I knew next to nothing about Judaism except for things I read here and there, atheism was an alluring and brilliant concept. Perhaps I would somehow try to suffuse my intellectual curiosity and lust for spirituality with atheism. Indeed, the notion that you know a massive secret, that G-d doesn't exist, makes you a philosophical war-lord and hero, that your view trumps the view of everybody and simultaneously slaughters them and lays them to waste. This aspect of atheism was especially alluring to me. Not only that, I had seen myself, in some strange way, being a representative of G-d, believing in Him and having a strong belief in ethics and morality; atheism was adept at supplanting my urge of helping bring a new knowledge to the world, that there was no G-d. I saw the Jews as people who carried the world into the future and into peace by producing intellectual and philosophical genius; I saw atheism as the most powerful and magnificent philosophy. Not only that, the grand irony of it all would be that, the people to whom G-d revealed Himself first, which I interpreted as being simply an awe-inspiring philosophy, now realized the error of this way and once again took it upon themselves to take humanity to the next level, which was that there was no G-d. The allure of it was "very Jewish," I was motivated in this direction for a reason closely related to my identification as a Jew, and it was even stronger and more solid than my short interest in Christianity, although most likely it helped compound my fear. I actually remember thinking that I rather believe in no G-d than in Jesus; I said to myself, "If G-d is actually going to allow Christianity to be true, if G-d actually made Jesus His son, this goes against everything I feel deep down in the deepest form of myself to be right, and I rather reject G-d than accept this model." So I rejected G-d because Christianity, being G-dless to me, might as well have been atheism.

The death of my grandmother on my mom's side, whom I loved dearly and to which I responded with shouting, punching, and, for the first and last time in my life, literally cursing G-d's Name (and punching my dad), made atheism a high priority for me. Then a few days later the news of one of my best friends to whom I looked up (a girl on whom I also had a crush) being killed in a car accident when I was in Israel compounded it. I hated G-d and was totally closed to Him and to even thinking about Him; I spent the next year or two in a spiritual gaze with no relationship with myself or with G-d. However, deep down inside the deepest part of me knew that I believed in G-d, which makes sense considering that I said that I hated Him, for how can you hate Someone that does not exist? As time went on and my bitter anger and resentment towards G-d did not decrease but simply reached disgraceful peaks of neutrality, I was able to relatively easy enough contend with myself and others that G-d simply did not exist. "Hell" would be a good word to describe that period of time in my life, and there is no G-d in Sheol.

The Jewish Period

It took years for the thick barrier that I erected to begin cracking to the point where water could again flow through. It all culminated when I was twenty one years old and went on a Birthright trip to Israel. My anger and bitterness were, for the few years before this, slowly being replaced with joy, inspiration, and a rediscovered, if not dramatically altered, understanding of G-d. Not only that; I also knew by that point, now for actual theological and philosophical reasons, that Christianity was false, although I still reserved much anger for it. I had begun to understand the urgings of Islam and realized that it too was false, while the Eastern religions never spoke loudly to me anyway. On my trip to Israel that year, equipped with an existent faith in G-d and His existence, He allowed an interesting experience at the Kotel, the Western Wall. I had come to realize that a vow I made when I was in my senior year of high school, that I would not become religious until I felt G-d because so many people called themselves religious but were jerks, was answered with an overpowering spiritual experience. Upon returning to Tucson it took me about five months to digest this experience and to let it seep into my conscious, but when it did, I realized that the only proper course of action for me was to become an observant Jew, i.e., Orthodox, i.e., living in accordance with the commandments of the Torah.

From the time before I approached atheism, I understand in retrospect that certain things I was doing, certain minor "obsessions" I had, which annoyed my family, were in fact "primordial" attempts to embrace my (and our) religion. I was makpid (stringent) with my family on Chanukah to turn off all the lights in the house (although I now know that this is not allowed) and to open the presents in a ritual manner, and showed an external desire to light candles on Shabbat, say Kiddush, and eat the meal together. On Passover I insisted stubbornly that we say the entire Passover Hagadah, which annoyed my family, and even though I too gained little spiritual benefit from it and even resented it a little, wanting to get to the meal already, I felt that it was the right thing to do to read the whole thing. On Yom Kippur, in which my family stayed in our house and fasted, we would try to sleep all day, and I believed that through the relative discomfort we had, that we were achieving the goal of Passover; this is only partially true. We would attend an Orthodox synagogue twice a year, Chabad of Young Israel in Tucson, Rabbi Yosi Shemtov, and although I didn't know how to pray, I felt happy enough holding a siddur (prayer book) in my had, flipping its thin pages, and being surrounded by the service. Rabbi Shemtov also taught me my Bar-Mitzvah portion, of which the reading was held there, with all of my Gentile friends, and some Jews. I was trying to find a way to let something inside of me find external expression, and it just so turned out that that thing was Orthodox Judaism, although I didn't feel like I could accurately call myself an Orthodox Jew until years into observance.

Modern Times

Five years after coming back from Israel on Birthright, I am learning in a yeshiva in Jerusalem, my sister is Orthodox and married to one of my good friends, my newly-wed cousin is married and in living in New York with her husband, my other cousin (her brother) believes in G-d whereas before he was an atheist, and our Tucson family in general has accepted our observance and embraced it in their own ways. My aunt and uncle kashered their house and my dad davins Shacharit (prays morning services) with Orthodox friends and eats lunch with them on Shabbat, which I also did with him when I was in Tucson. Thank G-d, He has surely granted our family with blessing and brings us nearer to our tradition of truth.

I now understand both the appeal of Christianity and of atheism, and having learned about Islam and Eastern religions, I have somewhat of an understanding what makes a Jew go in either of those directions.

A Jew and a Christian Discuss -

The Jew is me, Yaniv, and the Christian is Danny, a friend of mine from Tucson. Grab the popcorn, sit back, and enjoy - a modern-day debate between a Jew and a Christian for your enjoyment!

Danny said:

http://www.wayofthemasternews.com/raysmonthlycolumn.htm

I thought you would since I have seen you talk about this subject.

Love,

Danny

Yaniv said:

I tried to keep it short, hehe.

I too used to hold Christianity's involvement in the Holocaust against Christianity, but over the years I've learned a bit about the true essence of Christianity. I don't really bother to be angry at Christianity for its involvement anymore, now it's just its theology that keeps me away from it. What I mean is, it would be irrational for me to say that just because Christianity was so intimately related to the Holocaust and helped it occur that I should resent it forever. The truth is that Christians can repent for their involvement, this is true, any many have, but the true problem with Christianity is not its history but its theology, which is pagan. As long as that lasts there is a problem. I won't hold Christianity's involvement in the Holocaust against any Christian because they can't be held accountable.

This is the connection. Paganism/polytheism have always sought to destroy monotheism, this is probably the root cause of all (or a huge majority) of the world's problems - the tension created by the fundamental conflicts resulting from the clash of monotheism and polytheism and their respective values. The opposite is also true - monotheism seeks to destroy polytheism, but how is another topic. Theologically speaking, Christianity is not monotheism and so it too has in it buried the nagging desire to push against Judaism. The unique thing about Christianity is that it is polytheism in monotheism's outfit, and it speaks in its name. I realize that we won't agree on this, and that's fine, but how exactly was Hitler able to use Christianity to rile up the masses, many (or most? I don't know) of which were Christian, to unite against the Jews in such a fashion? Clearly, Danny, there was some overlaying hostility in Christianity towards the Jews, and Hitler just found a way to tap into that and release it. Yes, my friend, the Christians were not very happy with the Jews and Hitler manipulated their "grievances" against them, although I agree that there were many more elements to the Holocaust than just religion.

Since Hitler found a way to tap into that anger, we have to ask why it existed in the first place. As a rule of thumb, polytheistic and monotheistic religions cannot essentially get along, look at the history of the Jews and their neighbors; the Midianites, Moabites, Babylonians, Assyrians, Egyptains, Persians, Philistines, Canaanites (Amorites, Amalekites, Jebusites, Girgashites), Greeks, Romans, etc... At one time or another all of these people tried to destroy the Jews, or Israelites or Hebrews, depending on when, even when those groups recognized that "the G-d of the Hebrews" existed. Christianity was a deviation from Judaism. It eventually appealed to Gentile societies, whom were all polytheistic, and succeeded in spreading by infusing Jewish legal terms (sacrifices) with easy-to-understand pagan theologies (Divine duality, multiplicity). In other words, the religion of Christianity (regardless of its Jewish roots) became a Gentile religion, and those Gentiles, most of whom were Roman subjects and elitists, were not very far away from resenting Jews already. When Constantine rose to power and Judaism turned into a minority religion in the Roman Empire, some accounts of history explain that a huge number of Jews were killed. Considering that technology wasn't as good then, it is said that the number was basically proportionate to the number of Jews killed in Germany in the 20th century. I can try to find the source if you want. This kind of thing kept happening on and off for the next 2,000 years in Christian countries (both Catholic and Protestant) all over Europe and that trend made the Holocaust very possible. I can forgive a Christian because they are not accountable for it, and I am actually more than happy to because I don't want to live with that anger festering away at my soul. However, I am turned away from Christianity because of its paganism; if there is a connection between paganism and resenting Jews, this is definitely demonstrable throughout contemporary and Biblical (OT) history.

How your individual identity fits into Christianity is impossible for me to know.

Peace, your pal, Yaniv...

Also said by Yaniv:

Theologically speaking, Christianity is not monotheism and so it too has in it buried the nagging desire to push against Judaism. The unique thing about Christianity is that it is polytheism in monotheism's outfit, and it speaks in its name. Forget Hitler, he's dead; what should really alarm you is that your religion has internal elements of polytheism and you should ponder if that makes G-d very happy with you. This is much more sinister than any human being could ever hope to be, especially since it seems like monotheism.

All said as a pal, Yaniv...

Danny said:

Well, my thing is that I don't think people are smart enough to make up G-d being three separate entities but fully God as one being. It sounds a little like it is beyond human understanding. Also when I read the Old Testament from the first chapter and especially the profits, I get this very same understanding from them. Daniel even goes so far as to predict the exact day God will show up on earth, which happened with Christ. Also, Christ taught and magnified the Law of G-d even to the heart level, G-d sees our inward parts. Meaning G-d will judge us for our thought life as well as our actions and is mad at sin. Christ is perfect, holly and righteous. Your G-d doesn't hold everyone accountable for every, word, thought and deed.

Danny said:

Why would a demon teach humans to be good, kind and loving, focused only on G-d and not our selves? Why would a demon, teach us to be righteous and give G-d glory in all situations? No other religious book does that. All others teach work righteousness and against the Ten Commandments.

Oh and the other thing was that the Old Testament says that only G-d can tell the future and it be fulfilled. Well, Christ told the future with it coming true, a demon can not do that. He also shared wisdom which is against society and man's understanding even today. G-d in the old testament says that his wisdom is not like man's.

What I am saying is I am not concerned about what term Christ seems like, polytheism or what not. I am only concerned if my life matches up with all of scripture, weather I like what it says or not. Most of what is in the New Testament is challenging and life changing beyond the core of me. It is 90% mental and only 10% physical, it comes down to, it only matters if it is true or not.

Sorry, tried to make it short,

Danny

Yaniv said:

I'll respond to the things in order.

People are smart enough to make up anything; Communism, Socialism, Darwinism, Atheism, that religion that Tom Cruise practices, because the human mind is incredibly dynamic. That the human mind can conceptualize (to limited degrees) the wonder of G-d is dangerously close to being able to "inventing" the existence of G-d Himself. You should hear the arguments for that, which ultimately cannot stand but at least they sound sophisticated. I once heard a saying, "I wouldn't have seen it if I hadn't believed it with my own mind." The point is that you can see anything you want in the "Old Testament" whether it's actually there or not.

It would be basically pointless for us to talk about what the prophets actually meant if we hold that subjectivity is the prime factor in our decision making, which is what I'm reading from you. Most of what you're saying to me in the first paragraph doesn't seem very thought out, such as "Daniel even goes so far as to predict the exact day G-d will show up on earth, which happened with Christ." If you and I are having an intellectual discussion, you won't change the way I think about things by simply telling me something that you believe or that your Bible says. I don't believe that "G-d showed up on earth" with Christ, and I certainly don't believe that Jesus was the Messiah. You have never tried to live your life by the Law, or by a type of religious law, so your understanding of the Law of the Torah is insufficient to comment on the way it affects man. One of the most fundamental Torah lessons is to internalize the Law and to become a "pnimi," a person who is trying to condition himself with it.

As a Christian you need to believe that the Law of the Torah cannot penetrate into the heart of man and fill him with joy and devotion and compassion, because if it did, what would be the point of Christianity? If that is what you really believe then you are sadly mistaken. In other words, you need to believe that your religion provides something that Judaism doesn't, but that's not true. "My G-d" certainly does hold everybody accountable for their every sin, thought, or deed, both good and bad and everywhere in between, because He is the perfect Judge. If you have not gotten this message from reading "my Bible" then you haven't been paying attention or you've been hearing the wrong thing.

Deception needs to be deceiving if it's going to work. The people who make Coca-Cola make sure that it tastes really, really good, but it's pretty bad for you. If they made it taste as bad as it was for you, then you wouldn't even dream of drinking it. The Satan is a deceiver and it has been endowed its powers by G-d Himself and so the illusions with which it tempts humanity are incredibly effective, even on people that are equipped to deal with them. It doesn't have the powers of G-d but there is a source in the Torah (Talmud) saying that demons have the ability to create small illusory worlds. I don't know exactly what that means, but if you have ever seen a person completely lost in a certain way of life, it is as if they are indeed lost in a small world. So yes, that is the power of a demon, and it will lace a bad thing with good things so that you do not see the bad in it.

All of the religious books present their message as a positive one; why would they do otherwise? Would make it make sense to have a religion that allowed the follower to know that it was to deliberately harm people? That would not be very deceiving.

In the Tanakh we see all kinds of idol worshippers and star worshippers telling the future, and they did not do it through prophecy. The reality of the world is that they were able to tap into elements of truth through these things, but not absolute truth. There's a source in the Torah that says that when Potiphar's wife went to seduce Joseph that something else was actually going on. She had told Joseph that the stars inferred that they were to be together, and Joseph checked the stars (astrology) and found that she was right, and just as they were about to commit the deed his father Jacob appeared to him in a window (also in the stars) and told him that it was not the right way, so he stopped. Jacob himself used a form of divination when he made Lavan's sheep give birth to only speckled sheep, which he kept for himself. The way he did that was by having them look at striped pieces of wood when they were mating and then they gave birth to speckled sheep (does that make any sense to you? It was divination). The Egyptians also used loads of black magic and were actually able to simulate the things that Moses was doing through the Hand of G-d, such as turning the staff into a snake and making the water turn into blood, which is written in the text of the Torah. Bilaam, the prophet of Midian, was able to achieve a level of prophecy as well through very questionable means, which the Torah explains was through having relations with his donkey, which the text specifically mentions was a "she-donkey." The Torah has a commandment not to communicate with the dead and not to partake in the rituals of the pagan nations. But why not? If their gods aren't real then why does it matter? The answer is that their gods aren't real but that their rituals worked because G-d made the world with those things accessible. However, He also intended for those things to be off limits to humanity and so He commanded us not to do them. Only the wisest and most discerning people who are thoroughly steeped in Torah study and living should touch on those things because only they will use them for the right purposes and the right way.

The core religious experience provided by every single religion in the whole world is that it provides the follower with the ability to reach something outside of himself. However, being taken outside of our core is not how we measure the truth of a religion because every single religion in the world is designed to take a person out of himself. So does music, sex, drugs, and even violence, which explains why people speak about those things in spiritual terms (and why, to a degree, religion utilizes these things for spirituality). Again, I can't make judgments on your personal spiritual experiences, but all I can say is that everybody is capable of spirituality and that in and of itself is not self-validating.

I also tried to make it short. Peace, Yaniv...

Danny said:

Well, my thing is that I don't think people are smart enough to make up G-d being three separate entities but fully God as one being. It sounds a little like it is beyond human understanding. Also when I read the Old Testament from the first chapter and especially the profits, I get this very same understanding from them. Daniel even goes so far as to predict the exact day God will show up on earth, which happened with Christ. Also, Christ taught and magnified the Law of G-d even to the heart level, G-d sees our inward parts. Meaning G-d will judge us for our thought life as well as our actions and is mad at sin. Christ is perfect, holly and righteous. Your G-d doesn't hold everyone accountable for every, word, thought and deed.

Dan A. orginally said:

"My personal belief, not an argument, is that people are still not intelligent enough to understand that concept of G-d that Jesus describes and what I feel the profits also described. That would be consistent with it being written that God choose the foolish things to confound the wise. God resist the proud and has chosen foolish things to confuse the wise. Pr 3:34, Isa 29:14"

Yaniv responded:

"I read Proverbs 3:34, and mine reads "If {one is drawn] to the scoffers, he will scoff, but [if one is drawn] to the humble, he will find favor." Maybe our translations are a bit different, but I'm trying to connect this verse with our topic and I can't really see how they connect with each other. However, Proverbs 3:1 seems to connect pretty well to the conversation. "My child, do not forget the Torah, and let your heart guard My commandments, for they add to you length of days and years of life and peace. Kindness and truth will not forsake you. Bind them upon your neck; inscribe them on the tablet of your heart, and you will find favor and goodly wisdom in the eyes of G-d and man." I scanned through the next couple of Proverbs and all I found was a constant reference to the wisdom of the Torah and the call to keep it. Proverbs 7:1-2 is especially telling, "My child, heed my words and store up my commandments with yourself. Heed my commandments and live, and [heed] my Torah as the apple of your eyes." G-d speaking to the Jews as "My child" is exactly what I was talking about when the "Father Son" analogy is filled between G-d and the Jewish People, and to a degree the Gentiles as well.

As for as Isaiah 29:14, I agree fully. Isaiah was very big on castigating the Jews based on their insincere sacrificial offerings , their idolatry, and just plain out acts of immorality and treachery. He also rails the surrounding nations and tells them that they're going down too, and tells them when they're doing the right thing. Back to the Jews, check out Isaiah 11, to the Jews, whom he refers to as "people of Gomorrah," "Why do I need your numerous sacrifices? says Hashem." Good place to stop, but the next verse says, "I am sated with elevation-offerings of rams and the fat of fatlings; the blood of bulls, sheep, and goats I do not desire. When you come to appear before Me,who sought this from your hand, to trample My courtyards. Bring your worthless meal-offering to Me no longer, it is incense of abomination to Me." Notice, G-d tells Isaiah "I am sated with elevation offerings of rams and the fat of fatlings," -- G-d was satisfied with the genuine offerings, which took away sin, but deplored the bulls, sheep, and goats, because it had apparently become a trend to bring countless sacrifices that were not genuine, and G-d was interested in genuine service to Him. Also, it seems that G-d was more satisfied with the minimum sacrifices done genuinely than with the larger sacrifices, when brought in the proper spirit, sanctified G-d's Name. The problem is that people were bringing them improperly, to bribe G-d, as it were, and this enraged G-d. Skip back real quick to Exodus 29:38, where G-d commands Aaron to bring the continual offering. "This is what you shall offer upon the Altar: two sheep within their first year every day, continually. You shall offer the one sheep in the morning, and the second sheep shall you offer in the afternoon; and a tenth-ephah of fine flour mixed with a quarter-hin of beaten oil, and a libation of wine for each sheep." Turns out that the Jews had forgotten how to do it the proper way, and G-d sent Isaiah to warn and remind them.

Here's the part I really wanted to emphasize, in Isaiah 29:14, when G-d says, "Bring your worthless meal-offering to Me no longer, it is incense of abomination to Me," contrast this with Exodus 29:41, in which G-d describes the proper sacrificial meal-offering, "You sh all offer the second sheep in the afternoon, like the meal-offering of the morning and its libation you shall offer for it, for a satisfying aroma, a fire-offering to Hashem; as a continual burnt-offering for your generations, at the entrance of the Tent of Meeting, before Hashem; where I shall set My meeting with you to speak to you there." To break it down even more, the contrast is between "it is incense of abomination to Me," and "for a satisfying aroma..."

If you read on in Isaiah 29:14, those verses G-d also deplores the New Moon and "appointed times," i.e., other holidays, because the Jews were getting carried away with proper ritual and slacking in proper ethics and morality towards their fellow man; see Isaiah 16, "Wash yourselves, purify yourselves, remove the evil of your deeds from before My eyes; cease doing evil. Learn to do good,s eek justice, vindicate the victim, render justice to the orphan, take up the grievance of the widow." Ultimately, Isaiah 29:14 speaks against the corruption of the Law (Isaiah 29:13 - ---their fear of Me is like rote learning of human commands ---), but even, and especially he understood that there was a proper version of the Law, to which he alludes throughout the entire Book. Your own misreading of the verse has to do with your reading that the "human commands" to which he refers are the commandments that G-d gave, but a different reading into the text suggests something entirely more consistent with Torah and Judaism. That settles it, there is a Jewish way and a Christian way to view these things, but the Jewish way, in which we still keep the commandments, is a far cry more consistent with Isaiah's charges than is Christianity. There is no way to apply Isaiah's charges to Christianity, but there is definitely a way to apply it to Judaism, at least in theory when the Temple is not standing.

Dan A. orginally said:

"When you look at Mithraism, Attis, Krishna, and Horus stories, it's like comparing apples to oranges. Sure there are similarities but they are not the same story. Just read the stories themselves not the comparisons. You will not be able to put them together like I have seen authors do.

All accounts of gods share a common denominator when you look at the actual stories of their legacies. They were always conquerors that slew down their enemies in heroic super human fashions. And many times they did not die. In stories that god's did die, it was in a glorious destructive super human fashion. They usually were fighting, showing further that they were gods and not men. The stories would not show any kind of weakness to their god, they showed them served by men, and they could not be hurt by men."

Yaniv responded:

"It seems to me that in the End of Days, the Christian version, that Jesus and Satan "have it out" in a war for humanity, as is explained in Revelations (of which I am no expert what-so-ever). What you get is a serious war of duality between good and evil, which Judaism believes in as well, but the difference is that Revelations explains it as a literal battle of sorts where all kinds of physical emanations of both good and evil (Jesus and Satan) expresses themselves (the red moon, the wife in white, the four horsemen, etc...) and then something about the very ominous and physical "mark of the beast," another physical thing. At best, without sounding insulting, it's a bit reminiscent of a comic book where the good guys and bad guys meet in one final showdown for turf, and of course the good guys win. I give it to you, it's a bit more sophisticated than the all-out pagan "versions" from earlier times, but I think that the Christians, who at least felt themselves to be monotheists, rejected much of the imagery of pagan antiquity from their works. Nevertheless, they didn't do the job quite as good as they should have for monotheists. What I mean is, it was a valiant effort and I even respect them a little bit (from my comfortable seat in 2007), but to me it shows that Revelations was a human work based on a humanly-established religion with a human Trinity, which is not very far in its roots from that same pagan antiquity.

Dan A. originally said:

"You can see then why Jesus was different. He was the Prince of Peace not war, he came to serve others and not to be served to, he was humble enough to wash others feet, and was willing to surrounded himself with those scorned by society. He also was willing to die in a shameful, dishonored fashion for the glory of His Father. There was really no way to make Christ up because people did not see any of his qualities, before him, as God like features."

Yaniv responded:

"I object only to the last part. Surely his anger, judgment, knowledge of the Law and authority of the Law, not to mention his kindness, compassion, and ability to tell the future and perform miracles, and of course his immortality, were elements of his being due to being G-d. All in all, from a narrative perspective, even from a Jewish narrative perspective, Jesus is the kinder, gentler, sweeter emanation of G-d. However, it's pagan and not Jewish because while there are a few canonical Jewish narratives about a physical G-d (the Song at the Sea calls G-d a "Man of War" and other texts talk about G-d in physical terms), there is no place anywhere in (canonical) Jewish thought where G-d has a literal physical body and is found walking around and talking with people. The fact that the Jews did not include any of the Christian works (the original first few of which had Jewish authors) in the Tanakh, other than the politics of religion, is the same reason that the Book of Baruch (I don't know what it's called), and others, are not included in the Tanakh's canon - they were deemed, and were in fact, heretical texts. Yours just has the pleasure of becoming a religion unto its own.

Yaniv originally said:

It would be basically pointless for us to talk about what the prophets actually meant if we hold that subjectivity is the prime factor in our decision making, which is what I'm reading from you. Most of what you're saying to me in the first paragraph doesn't seem very thought out, such as "Daniel even goes so far as to predict the exact day G-d will show up on earth, which happened with Christ." If you and I are having an intellectual discussion, you won't change the way I think about things by simply telling me something that you believe or that your Bible says. I don't believe that "G-d showed up on earth" with Christ, and I certainly don't believe that Jesus was the Messiah.

Dan A. originally said:

Again, it doesn't matter what I believe it only matters if the Bible says it or not, meaning that it is true or not. Since you say it is all subjective then that means you can't tell me that it doesn't say that, so I could be right. Every time I back something up with Scripture though you tell me that it doesn't really say what I read so, what is the point? I have shown you in the book of Daniel before where he predicts to the day when G-d will show up. You basically told me it is not saying that, it is a big coincidence that it mathematically works out right? Daniel 9:25-26

Yaniv responded:

I didn't say that the Torah is subjective, I said that your readings of the Torah were subjective and therefore we would go back and forth talking about what we think they mean, and that would get us nowhere. Alright, but you point was made. I'm going to save this one for a bit later because it's late at night and I don't want to do any math right now.

Yaniv originally said:

You have never tried to live your life by the Law, or by a type of religious law, so your understanding of the Law of the Torah is insufficient to comment on the way it affects man. One of the most fundamental Torah lessons is to internalize the Law and to become a "pnimi," a person who is trying to condition himself with it.

As a Christian you need to believe that the Law of the Torah cannot penetrate into the heart of man and fill him with joy and devotion and compassion, because if it did, what would be the point of Christianity? If that is what you really believe then you are sadly mistaken. In other words, you need to believe that your religion provides something that Judaism doesn't, but that's not true. "My G-d" certainly does hold everybody accountable for their every sin, thought, or deed, both good and bad and everywhere in between, because He is the perfect Judge. If you have not gotten this message from reading "my Bible" then you haven't been paying attention or you've been hearing the wrong thing.

Dan A originally said:

That is what Christ was all about helping people do, internalize the Law, Ten Commandments specifically. I know what the Bible says but you say something different. You say as long as people follow I guess the Law of Noah, you are fine. Well, it says that no one has followed the law. Well, then we are all in big trouble. You say yes we have followed the law but that is not what the Bible says. You also say if we have broken the law then with prayer we would be forgiven. That is not what the Bible says. It says that a sacrifice needs to be made to cover sin, not the forgiveness of it. You say there is no need for a sacrifice because the Temple is gone. A sacrifice was required before the Temple and so a sacrifice is required when there is no Temple. Also G-d says that he only hears the prayers of the priests that offer scarifies, to atone for sin. So, prayer from individuals is no good, where are your priests that offer the sin offerings?

Yaniv responded:

But Danny, the Law is 613 commandments, not ten, although the Ten Commandments make up an essential bulk of the spirit of the Torah. Where does "it" say that no one has followed the law (of Noah, I guess)? I would agree that the Gentiles are in trouble for not following the Law of Noah, as in much trouble as the Jews are for not following the Law of Moses. You also don't believe in the existence of an Oral Law, which I have shown you exists, so of course you are not seeing the Law of Noah listed in the Torah. Actually, the Torah does say that prayer can lead to forgiveness. It's in Hosea and recited in the prayer service in the morning, saying, "May You forgive all iniquity and accept good [intentions], and let our lips substitute for bulls." (Hosea 14:3) Hosea was a book written over a period of 300 years, according to what I read, and was written b y many people. Hosea himself was a contemporary of Isaiah according to the Sages (the Oral tradition). Correction, there IS a need for sacrifice even though the Temple is gone, because G-d has not abolished that system permanently - it's an eternal system, that's the biggest key about all of this. Initially, before the Temple was built and Jews were bringing sacrifices in the Tent of Meeting, a sacrifice was brought simultaneously with repentance. Numbers 15:25 explains this, "The Kohen shall atone for the entire assembly of the Children of Israel and it shall be forgiven them," so you're right, but we are living in a post-Temple time where even if we wanted to bring sacrifices we couldn't. Therefore, G-d accepts atonement from us in a different way until that time has been returned to us because He wouldn't let us go without a way to atone.

Dan A. originally said:

The Law is justice so that doesn't mean you can just apologize or do some good things to make up for breaking the law. If you are in court and a judge is going to sentence you then nothing you can do can make up for it. You can not do a bunch of good things because the Judge would not be upholding justice if he lets you bribe him with good works or apologies. Therefore God will give everyone justice that has broken his laws. Not everyone receives justice on this earth so his justice must be after we die. Psalm 55:15

Yaniv responded:

I haven't looked at the verse yet, but I agree. Okay, now I'm looking at the verse. It says, "together we would take sweet counsel; in the House of G-d we would walk in company." The later verses have to do with death and going down to the grave. I've dabbled in the Psalms and much of the time David is not always referring to the Law, per se, sometimes he's referring to generally good and evil behavior, such as that of his enemies, who we know were from the House of Israel, i.e., often people that wanted to take him down. However, you're still not exactly right because G-d takes into account the intent of man during their judgment and considers it before sealing them. True, you cannot apologize during your judgment, but you have a whole life ahead of you to do that and to do repentance and you don't need to wait until then.

Yaniv originally said:

Deception needs to be deceiving if it's going to work. The people who make Coca-Cola make sure that it tastes really, really good, but it's pretty bad for you. If they made it taste as bad as it was for you, then you wouldn't even dream of drinking it. The Satan is a deceiver and it has been endowed its powers by G-d Himself and so the illusions with which it tempts humanity are incredibly effective, even on people that are equipped to deal with them. It doesn't have the powers of G-d but there is a source in the Torah (Talmud) saying that demons have the ability to create small illusory worlds. I don't know exactly what that means, but if you have ever seen a person completely lost in a certain way of life, it is as if they are indeed lost in a small world. So yes, that is the power of a demon, and it will lace a bad thing with good things so that you do not see the bad in it.

Dan A. originally said:

Well then you would confuse every good work of G-d as Satan’s. That is why the Bible tells you what is of God and what is of Satan. That is why you study the word to know the difference. That is why a Profit had to profess the future %100 or he was killed. And if a house is divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand. (Mark 3:25)

Yaniv responded:

Just because Satan creates illusions, which is his job, it doesn't mean that a person is hopeless for the truth. Every good work being confused as G-d's when it is really Satan's applies to you too. G-d has told us the truth with the Torah so a person who follows the Torah need not fear. "Hashem said to the Satan, 'Hashem shall denounce you, O Satan, and Hashem, Who selects Jerusalem, shall denounce you again. This is indeed a firebrand rescue from flames." (Zechariah 3:2)

Yaniv originally said:

All of the religious books present their message as a positive one; why would they do otherwise? Would make it make sense to have a religion that allowed the follower to know that it was to deliberately harm people? That would not be very deceiving.

Dan A. originally said:

Yes, but other religion's doctrine always calls evil good and good evil. Isaiah 5:20 They also describe God in a different way than what has been reviled in scripture. Job 37-42 It describes how high G-d is mighty and high and how low and horrid we are. His perfection is majestic and we are low and detestable. We are to be servants to the most High not the other way around.

Yaniv responded:

Isaiah is referring to corruption within the Jewish People, because Isaiah 5:19 says, "Those who say, 'Let Him hurry, let Him hasten His actions, so that we may see it; let the plan of the Holy One of Israel approach and take place, so that we may know it.'" I think you can still apply what Isaiah said there to actual idolatry in general, for sure, but it's not the jist of the text. This is one reason I am Jewish. Your reading of those verses of Job are expressive of the misery contained in Christianity theology; where in the world do you get from those verses that we are "low and detestable?!" Rather, G-D IS HIGH! Even the best of us, as high as we are (and there are some amazing holy people in this world) are lower than G-d, because HE IS THE HIGHEST! Unfortunately, this is how you read the message of Job because Christianity encourages a miserable and lowly view of the human being, which is the ANATHEMA to the way G-d desires us to view ourselves. I can't help but to be depressed by your view via Job. Job is uplifting explaining to us that G-d is so great that His most basic inventions are entirely mysterious and confounding to us. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is not a reason to be lowly and depressed but a reason to rejoice; G-d's perfection is majestic, but we are also His creatures and so we are low, but majestic too, and not in the least detestable! And HORRID!? What a word to use on the apple of G-d's eyes! It says in the Torah about the commandments, "You shall live by them and not die by them," we should also live by the glory of G-d and not die by it. Servants to a King Who loves us, now Who believes that we are horrid mongrels, even if we sometimes, maybe often, act like it.

Dan A. originally said:

So, scripture is my standard to know what is true and what is false. First I look at the Torah and Profits, and then I look to see if it says that there is more for us to know. It says he will reveal more info to us. Only 400 years passed since the New Testament. Malachi says in chapter 3 that G-d will come. Jeremiah 31:31 So, then I look to the New Testament to see if that matches up to what is predicted because that too claims to be the word of G-d. If it matches up, then I see if there are going to be anything more for me to know in the future after that. The New Testament says, NO! I do not have to look any further now for more info that God will be sharing.

Yaniv responded:

Jeremiah 31:31 does not fall on deaf ears. Read on, "Thus said Hashem, Who gives the sun as a light by day and the laws of the moon and the stars by night; Who agitates the sea s that its waves roar; Hashem, Master of Legions, is His Name: If these laws could be removed from before Me - the word of Hashem - so could the seed of Israel cease from being a people before Me forever. Thus said Hashem: If the heavens above could be measured or the foundations of the earth plumbed below, so too would I reject the entire seed of Israel because of everything they did - the word of Hashem." (Jeremiah 31:34-36) Just as the laws of nature are established and unchanging, so does G-d keep the Law alive and unchanging all the time, forever. The LAW my friend, the LAW. Which Law? Perhaps is it the Law that I keep? Our people-hood is based on the existence of the Law; they are basically synonymous - "the word of Hashem."

Yaniv originally said:

The core religious experience provided by every single religion in the whole world is that it provides the follower with the ability to reach something outside of himself. However, being taken outside of our core is not how we measure the truth of a religion because every single religion in the world is designed to take a person out of himself. So does music, sex, drugs, and even violence, which explains why people speak about those things in spiritual terms (and why, to a degree, religion utilizes these things for spirituality). Again, I can't make judgments on your personal spiritual experiences, but all I can say is that everybody is capable of spirituality and that in and of itself is not self-validating.

Dan A. originally said:

That is great but I was not talking about a feeling. The Bible says our feelings are wicked and deceitful, so I would not go on feelings. I am talking about the challenge of being perfect as G-d is perfect. It is completely challenging, there is a peace because I am no longer an enemy of G-d but am now one of his children reconciled to him. It is not a trance like state, it is where your mind is engaged and focused on God’s word. You also have a consistent experience of dieing to ones self and letting God lead you away from your nature of wanting to do to what is against God. You continue to give up your will for his. John 3:3

Yaniv responded:

Yes, I can agree with the part about dying to one's self and letting G-d lead you away from your nature of wanting to do what is against G-d. It seems that the way most religions understand return to G-d is very, very similar, the "born again" sentiment, which I definitely had. However, if there IS a difference between Judaism and Christianity with respect to this, I would say that it is that Judaism, via the Torah, doesn't view humanity as a miserable wretch of a being due to the fall of Adam and Eve and original sin, because G-d "is a jealous G-d, Who visits the sin of fathers upon children to the third and fourth generations, for My enemies; but Who shows kindness for thousands [of generations] to those who love Me and observe My commandments." (Exodus 20:5-6)." We are not trying to get G-d to forgive us for the sin of Adam and Eve, because we are not liable for their sin. Rather, we are liable for our OWN sins and it is to THOSE sins which G-d holds us accountable. That's why you need Jesus and I don't, because G-d holds me accountable for my sins and helps me stop doing them and forgives me for them when I am genuinely interested in being forgiven. "Hashem, Hashem, G-d, Compassionate and Gracious, Slow to Anger, and Abundant in Kindness and Truth; Preserver of Kindness for thousands of generations, Forgiver of Iniquity, Willfull Sin, and Error, and Who Cleanses..." (Exodus 34:6). "Hashem is close to all who call upon Him - to all who call upon Him sincerely." (from Psalm 145, all of which is very good and is a daily prayer in the service).

To Yaniv (from the response to previous e-mail):

All your wisdom is the wisdom of the world. You don't back up any thing you say against scripture so I don't know how you expect me to take you seriously. The Lord's word should be the standard for all that you hold true, not doctrines taught by men. I know you do not believe the Messiah is Yahuâshuah Hamashiach the anointed one. (Romans 1:18) It doesn't come down to what you believe it comes down to if it is true or not. Christ said that he was the way the truth and the light, no one comes to the father except by him. That means he was either correct, a liar, stupid or crazy. (John 14:6) I have found that he is true now as he has always been. I know for sure that he is still alive, he is well right now. I also know that death could not hold him because he was the very essence on earth of the Most High. Who but God can give life and have dominion over death?

Your depiction of the Jewish people is not the depiction set in the Bible either. First there is Deuteronomy 9:6-29, Jeremiah 7-8, Ezekiel 16. G-d's word shows how rotten the Jewish people are and how his anger burns against them. God no longer hears your prayers or accepts your sacrifices. It shows how detestable Jewish people are for doing wrong against God. Yet all I hear from Jewish people is how great they are. How happy God is with their righteous deeds and pure culture that is following G-d's laws. I hear something different from Christians. I hear how detestable we are, how we are perverse enemies of God. How even though we are horrid in the sight of God he choose to save us anyway. That matches up with scripture, before and after Christ. Acts 7, Romans 3

Yaniv responded:

Quoting Dan, "Your depiction of the Jewish people is not the depiction set in the Bible either."

Neither is yours.

Danny, don't complain how horrid, detestable, and preverse Christianity says you are; I have nothing to do with what Christianity says! And who said that He chose to save you anyway? And it doens't match up with Scripture because G-d isn't levelling anywhere near the majority of criticisms towards you, but towards the Jewish People.

Dan A. said:

The message of the Bible is the same in Old Testament as it is in the New Testament. What I see the Jewish people do is change it to meet their own purposes. In fact that is why I do not say it is the same G-d at all that you worship. You worship a God that serves you and not a God that is to be served.

Yaniv responded:

Right, which is why we live the way we live. Surely it is a self-serving life! An Orthodox Jew's life is a life of dedication to G-d every step of the way that puts G-d's Will before his own. You can't get off easy telling me that the Jewish people changed the Law, or the Spirit of the Law, or whatever, in order to meet our purposes anymore than you can say that the Christians actually changed the text and the original meaning. Who was here first, the Jews or the Christians? So who changed the original? This particular argument that you made sounds a bit like the Muslim one.

"You worship a G-d that serves you and not a G-d that is to be served." All you know about Jewish living and the Jewish people is through Christian propaganda. The other part you "know" due to an internal fear that perhaps we are living the right way and so that way of life has to be devalited in order to make room for Christianity. It's okay, Danny, it's not your fault, it's a 2,000 year-old tradition and it's how Christianity began. The way a religion begins is the way it stays forever. This is true for Islam and for Christianity, which will always want to push up against Judaism. It's also true for Judaism, which began with revelation. You mistake continued revelation to be corruption, and there is room to see some truth in that, at least theoretically, but Christianity is definitely not continued revelation, and neither is Islam.

It is Christianity's god that serves them to its death, not Judaism's. It is Christianity's god that gives a knowing wink over at his followers saying, "Don't worry, I gotcha covered." It is Judaism's G-d that demands life and not death, and does not die Himself, as the liturgy says, "He has no body and no image of a body." It is Judaism's G-d that demands us to toil for our redemption and forgiveness and Who helps us accomplish these things, whether we know it or not or believe in Him or not. It is Christians who stand over their god as did Pharaoh over the Nile, expecting it to serve him.

Dan A. said:

The G-d of the Bible speaks about how he is Holly and perfect. His perfection was laid before us before the law and humans sinned against him. Then he gave his law written by his own finger. The Ten Commandments outlines his perfection, Moses says do not add anything to this because it is enough but scholars did and that is why the Talmud exists as disobedience to G-d. (Deuteronomy 4:2) G-d warns that if you lie, steal, blaspheme, covet, worship a god that you make up that suits you, disobey your parents, have anger or murder, have lustful thoughts or commit adultery, you will be judged and punished by God. (Psalm 1:6) That is why with great trembling we should cry out to him to save us from his wrath and unquenchable fire. He also says Isaiah 8:14 that G-d has put a stumbling block before the Jewish people and that is why your wisdom is darkened and you do not except the truth. Only G-d himself can save us from himself and his punishment. That is why Jesus came because only he can save us from himself, so that he receives all the glory and not us. We can do nothing to evade G-d because he knows everything and is everywhere. There is no way to hide from him and his justice. He will judge even our thoughts. Jewish people consistently say they follow the law and that they have not broken it but the bible says Psalm 14:1-3. It does not exclude Jews from this truth. I say this to Christians too! If a so called Christian says that they are good or that they have anything to offer God though their deeds then let them be dammed because no one is good and it is only though G-d's mercy and grace do we have any hope. God gets all the glory not though anything that we do to glorify ourselves.

Yaniv responded:

"He shall be a sanctuary, but also a striking stone and a stumbling rock, for the two houses of Israel; a trap and a snare for the inhabitants of Jerusalem." Isaiah 8:14. Christian readings of Jewish texts give the most backward, despondent, and dispicable readings, and not to mention hateful. It's okay, we'll continue to ignore this type of thing.

Dan A. originally said:

If Christ is false then all Christians are in trouble because we would have worshiped a false G-d that is not the almighty one. G-d's anger would burn against us and we will be destroyed. If the Jew is right the same thing will happen to them because like Isaiah 53 describes no one has taken the punishment that we deserve. There is only one God and why would he not save us from his wrath? Why would he not warn us and set his standard before us, not just to the Jews? Maybe G-d is not justice because he forgives without payment for sin but that is not the G-d of the Bible. There is only one G-d and why would the Devil command us to read and know G-d's word as Jesus does? Why would he command us to be wise and research all things? Jesus alone has brought G-d's truth and light to every nation, to follow his commands. That is what G-d wanted from the Jews but it did not happen because of disobedience.

Yaniv responded:

Yes, we are a stiff-necked people, that much is true! Of course, to hear all this from a Christian, who is just as stiff-necked in his idolatry as a Jew is in his faithlessness, well, makes some sort of sense. Hear what Isaiah has to say to you, "Come close, O nations, to hear, and regimes be attentive; let the earth and its fullness hear, the world and all its offspring. For Hashem has a fury against all the nations and a wrath against all their legions; He has destroyed them, He has delivered them to the slaughter. Their slain will be thrown aside and their corpses will bring up stench; the mountains will melt from their blood. All the host of the heavens will dissolve and the heavens will be rolled up like a scroll; all their host will shrivel as a leaf of grapevine shrivels and like a shriveled leaf of a fig tree. For my sword has been sated in the heavens; behold, it shall descend upon Edom and for judgment upon the people of My destruction. The sword of Hashem is full of blood, greased with fat, with the blood of fatted sheep and he-goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams; for Hashem is making a sacrifice at Bozrah and a great slaughter in the land of Edom. The wild oxen will go down [to the slaughter] with them, and bulls and fatted bulls; their land will be sated with blood and their soil enriched with fat. For it is a day of vengeance for Hashem; a day of retribution for the grievance of Zion."

Edom is Rome, and what survives of Rome today? G-d had a message for your own stiff-necked people!

Dan A. originally said:

The Septuagint Helps Us Understand the Hebrew Texts

Much is often made of the word for "virgin" in Isaiah 7:14

("The Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son."). Some have contended that the Hebrew word translated "virgin" -almah - simply means "young women." This indeed is one of the possible meanings of the Hebrew. However, in the Septuagint the word clearly indicates the Jewish scholarly opinion before the time of Jesus. The Greek word is parthenos (also used in Matthew 1:23), which very specifically means "virgin."

Seventy esteemed scholars understood what the ancient Hebrew meant, and they translated this meaning into Greek. Naturally they would have no incentive to invent prophecy about Jesus more than 200 years before he was born. Hence when key words are in question, the Septuagint often clarifies the precise meanings of the ancient Hebrew far better than the critics of today.

Yaniv responded:

Interesting, I'll have to check into that. All I can say before I do that is I am sure that these esteemed scholars, if they were religious, had no qualms about what the text actually meant from a theological perspective. I feel that Jewish translators, even religious, have been skittish, in the event that "almah" means "virgin," about actually writing that definition because they don't want to create an impression from a Jewish translation that Christianity is true. It's much easier just to have the text say something else if we already know what the truth is. Still, I speak Hebrew and have always learned that the word for (female) virgin is "betulah," and for a male, "batul." It shares a root with the word "betul," which means "nullified" or "devalidated," which probably is a reference to a person's marital status (because virginity was ideally lost on the night of marriage).

Dan A. said:

You can use what ever you want on your Blog, I just plead with you do not do a chop job!

Lots of Love,

Danny

Yaniv responded:

Don't worry, I won't. Peace, Yaniv...