Myspace Discussion about Israel and Lebanon............

This is a forward I received from someone on Myspace and my response. It is about the UN Observer's Post hit by Israel and the sender's opinions on the ceasefire. Enjoy, or quite possibly, get heated. She is a person I met on Myspace and changed her name on here to "Melissa" for fairness purposes.



Meslissa says:

This was orig. posted by a friend...I thought it important to repost...

Israel Hits U.N. Post; Casualties Reported
Jul 25 5:10 PM US/Eastern
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BEIRUT, Lebanon


A U.N. observer post was hit by an Israeli airstrike in south Lebanon Tuesday and there were casualties, a U.N. spokesman said. He could not specify how many or their condition.

A bomb directly impacted the building and shelter of an Indian patrol base from the observer force in the town of Khiyam near the eastern end of the border with Israel, said Milos Struger, spokesman for the U.N. peacekeeping force in Lebanon known as UNIFIL.

"There are casualties among the observers. UNIFIL immediately dispatched a rescue and medical team and they're currently on the location but unable to clear the rubble," Struger told The Associated Press late Tuesday.

He also said there were 14 other incidents of firing close to this position from the Israeli side Tuesday afternoon. "The firing continued even during the rescue operation," he said.

Since Israel launched a massive military offensive against Lebanon and Hezbollah guerrillas July 12, an international civilian employee working with UNIFIL and his wife have been killed in the crossfire between Israeli forces and Hezbollah guerrillas in the southern port city of Tyre.

Five UNIFIL soldiers and one military observer have also been wounded


My response:

Does the sender have an opinion? Anyway, these are some things that I've written that might interest you. Enjoy, Yaniv... (I sent her some links to some of the posts on this blog)

Her response:

thank you..i will check the links out ..I am just so drained from thinking about this conflict..I can not even imagine having to live it every day..it is just so very sad...I will write back tomorrow..I just sat through an hour of Charlie Rose, whom I love, but the whole thing seems so far gone at this moment. Shimon Peres was on tonight, and also a guy from the New Yorker, then a guy from NYT in damascas, and the under-secretary of state...and after listening to it all, it seems that the bar for approving a cease-fire has been set so impossibly high..I just dont think the US and Israel are at all serious about a cease-fire. I read or heard that there is arguing in the Knesset lately...some calling for an immediate cease fire, etc...have you heard much about that? I guess I could look it up, but I feel lazy at the moment..or, is it depressed that I feel..

Anyway, I'll talk to you tomorrow :)

Peace



My response:

Melissa,

Really, I just don’t understand your world view. What ceasefire are you talking about? Let me give you a little bit of a background on what “ceasefire” has always meant between Israel and many of the Arab states and sub-state entities with which it’s dealt. “Hudna,” (Arabic) loosely translated as “ceasefire,” is based on a conceptual agreement/truce introduced by Muhammad in dealing with conflict. This article does a very good job explaining how hudna has played out between Israel and the Palestinians. I don’t care about what the essential truth of what hudna means, because this isn’t a philosophical discussion, but how it has been used is to take advantage of an enemy during hostilities to take a breather before resuming combat. It’s a bit silly for Arab Muslims, for whom hudna is a part of their culture and religion (theoretically) to invoke hudna with Israel, which is majority Jewish and does not have a similar religious or cultural military “law of engagement.” Of course, that’s just the key; this makes it so Israel is bound to violate the hudna (for any convenient infraction) and therefore justify continued violence from Muslim terrorists. You have to get past the linguistic/cultural/religious gap; you say “ceasefire” and Hezba-llah says “hudna” – you’re thinking like a secular liberal American and they’re thinking like rightwing fascist Muslims. You don’t like the neo-cons here in the States and that’s fine, but you are unknowingly taking “ideological sides” with the Lebanese Muslim version of fanatic religious neo-cons; do you understand what I’m saying? It means that you’re a hypocrite, whether or not it’s your fault. These terrorists live in their own little cultish world and don’t care what anyone says or does – they really are sociopathic people, kind of like a person caught up in a cult or a neo-nazi group, or in terms you can understand, the Republican Party.

Melissa said, “I just dont think the US and Israel are at all serious about a cease-fire.” Melissa, please wake up, do you know who Israel is dealing with? Obviously not, you’re just talking to make yourself feel good. Put yourself in Hezba-llah’s shoes; why would you make an honorable ceasefire with an entity (Israel) of which you do not approve existing? You know, I have become pretty sure over the last few years talking to people with your ideology that people like Nasra-llah trust in Americans (and other Westerners) with that ideology; they know that anarchist-type liberals will offer a defense for them if it means getting to talk smack about America. The phrase “ignorant Americans” applies to both neo-cons and neo-liberals; they’re both Americans and they’re both dangerous. In the end, neo-cons benefit greatly from mind-controlling small-minded liberals; look at the Holocaust. They actually count on them for their propaganda machine to work; without knowing it, you have signed up for the American wing of Hezba-llah supporters. You feel depressed? You should. Please don’t act like your nobility and inherent love of peace are harmed by this war.

I don’t live in Israel, but I’ve been there when bombs have fallen and when suicide bombers have blown themselves up in areas nearby, in buses, which I used to travel there. I once took a train from Haifa to Tel-Aviv. On the way, dumped in some empty field were the remains of a bus in which a Palestinian blew himself up. Put a small explosive inside of sardine can full of ants and see what happens, its sides and top were ripped and blown open. This is metal; imagine what happens to the flesh of a human. I can tell you exactly what it’s like to live with this day-in and day-out; you develop a thick skin towards haters and learn how to talk to them. I can tell you exactly what it’s like to hear the childish rants of “heal the world-niks” that cry and fuss about the evils of Israel when they in fact have no clue what’s going on, when most of them can’t even point out Israel on a map. When all is said and done, after you’ve realized how hateful these people are, you learn how to love, hopefully. Jew-haters have been a dime a dozen in history, and Israel is their new (fifty six year-old) pinata. That’s the world I live in.


Her response:

you know what...I find it completely appalling that anyone could look at the devastation befalling lebanon and say that to want an end to violence is somehow "choosing sides" or "hating jews". Just so you know, I can ideed point quite well to Israel on a map and can tell you a thing or two about the geograhy of that region as well. Look, I will not choose sides. I refuse. But I do know this..Israel is not going to make itself safer by dropping bombs, just as the Bush admin has not made us any safer by dropping bombs..in fact, it has an opposite effect....

Public opinion is not looking good...Hezbollah is gaining great strides in popularity..and even the mainstream moderates are starting to side with hezbollah. I am sorry..but I dont see how any one can make so many "mistakes" in a campaign...bombing the UN observer post was just small compared to the pre-school and now this tragic event yesterday. If Israel was so interested in working to strengthen the lebanese military so that it can oust hezbollah, why did Israel in fact drop a bomb on the lebanese forces..just days ago? Nothing makes sense, why cant you see that?

Look, I have never suffered from any sort of violent attack..nor have I seen one first hand as you have. I can not imagine what sort of horrible affect such a thing would have. But the problem is not islam, nor is it judaism. It is not arab either. The problem is a handful of radical extremists who take religious texts out of context (suicide is BANNED in Islam) ...

and then there is the whole issue of nationalism ..based on common beliefs, language, geography,shared experience, etc..

But the main thing to remember is that these radical elements get stronger when we feed them, but it is never enough..and it saddens me deeply that so much hate seems to buiild upon itself..feeding the anger..I am going to sleep..I cant write any more..I'll write tomorrow

Peace (I mean it!) your friend, Melissa


My response:

Melissa said, "But I do know this..Israel is not going to make itself safer by dropping bombs, just as the Bush admin has not made us any safer by dropping bombs..in fact, it has an opposite effect...."

You're wrong; Israel is not America and Hezb-allah is not Al-Qaeda - Israel's attacker is on its border, not across an ocean and a stretch of land. Dropping bombs will make Israel safer and it will continue to do so until the a-hole in Lebanon, who doesn't give a rat's anything about his own people or anybody else, understands this or is killed. He is the textbook definition of a murderous raging lunatic, he makes the American neo-cons that you resent seem like teletubbies, yet Israel is the bad guy. I understand, I understand.

Melissa said, "Public opinion is not looking good...Hezbollah is gaining great strides in popularity..and even the mainstream moderates are starting to side with hezbollah."

This is where you're also wrong, the mainstream moderates are not starting to side with Hezba-llah, that's not the way everybody sees it.

Melissa said, "I am sorry..but I dont see how any one can make so many "mistakes" in a campaign...bombing the UN observer post was just small compared to the pre-school and now this tragic event yesterday. If Israel was so interested in working to strengthen the lebanese military so that it can oust hezbollah, why did Israel in fact drop a bomb on the lebanese forces..just days ago? Nothing makes sense, why cant you see that?"

The Israeli army has pretty good intelligence, especially from dealing with Hezba-llah and scores of other terrorist groups for basically the span of its existence. I'm sure that there was a reason to attack the military, especially, um, when they might be aiding. Do you really think that there is such a clear-cut distinguishing line between the Lebanese military and the Lebanese terrorist groups? They are composed of people from the same society. Anyway, I honestly don't know why the IAF (Israeli Air Force) attacked the Lebanese military, but I am willing to bet that they had a good reason. Under normal circumstances I would try to find out why Israel bombed the Lebanese military forces. Israel is interested in strenthening the Lebanese military so that it can oust Hezba-llah, but you asked a fallacious question; if their military is aiding Hezba-llah, which we would have to determine but is not unprecedented, then there would be reason to bomb a specific cell, let's say. In essence, if a certain part of the military is aiding Hezba-llah, they ARE Hezba-llah.

This is not a rhetorical question -- why do you begin to say that "nothing makes sense" only once the Israeli attacks start on Lebanon? Why didn't "nothing make sense" when Lebanon, after years of peace with Israel, kidnap three Israeli soldiers? Didn't they know that this would potentially start trouble? Hahaha, Nasra-llah said that he didn't expect such a response -- why the HECK not, because Israel is a chump? Why didn't "nothing make sense" when Nasra-llah REFUSED to return the soldiers to Israel, threatening an escalation to a war? Why didn't it make sense when Iranian and Syrian-backed terrrorist groups are operating within Lebanon and helping them against Israel? You're telling me that that makes sense? You're telling me that those countries HAD to do what they did, that they HAD to break relatively peaceful situations and to bring what's going on now on? Come on, what is your basis for when you choose to say "this doesn't make sense?"

Melissa said, "Look, I have never suffered from any sort of violent attack..nor have I seen one first hand as you have. I can not imagine what sort of horrible affect such a thing would have. But the problem is not islam, nor is it judaism. It is not arab either. The problem is a handful of radical extremists who take religious texts out of context (suicide is BANNED in Islam) ..."

That's apologetic, and you're comparing theory to practice, which is a fallacy. In THEORY Islam is a hunky-dory sensible and peaceful enough religion. If you're going to say that the "version" of Islam that is responsible for these attacks is a different type of Islam and that the "real Islam" is silent and sitting in the corners, you aren't right. You'd be hardpressed to say that there is a verifiable categorical difference. Here's the evidence; where are the peaceful Muslims, the "real Muslims?" Why aren't they making public protests? Where are they? We know that there are religious Jews that make public protests against the State of Israel and even for Palestinians (something I severely disagree with). The reason Muslims don't do this is because they don't express their opinions loudly at fear of death (which is documented), or they simply AGREE with the mainstream. There is a group of Orthodox Jews that get up and say the worst things about Israel but other Orthodox Jews don't kill them. They are the minority group and their ideas are shunned, that is a way to silence them. Muslims silence Orthodox Muslim opposition with fear.

The fact is that Islam would not be producing such violence if there was not a precedent for it in Muslim thought, i.e., the Qur'an and the Hadiths. A person versed in the Qur'an can identify which verses call for peace and which call for war, and you know what, human interpretation and dynamics is part and parcel of having a religious text; it is left relatively open to be interpreted in a manner convenient to a situation. So it's a big time fallacy to say that whoever is carrying out suicide bombing for example is violating the Qur'anic injuction not to kill one's self; if you die in a battle against an oppressive enemy you are not killing yourself even if you have chosen to fight but you are a martyr. I have yet to hear a Muslim scholar bemoan suicide bombing as suicide. No, they too believe that it is a justifiable war tactic. Some Hamas leaders (and Hezba-llah as well) have - scary huh? Some have actually extended the definition of martyrdom to innocent Muslims who die in crossfire. It's was even extended to Israeli Arabs who died in a suicide bombing. A Palestinian blew himself up in a restaurant and some Israeli Arabs who were dining there died; they were recognized as martyrs. We cannot see religion in a two-dimensional way if we are to understand it.

What do you think of this paragraph from an article I have?

"The proposal to give UNIFIL sensitive monitoring tasks attests to how uncertain it is that the international force will manage to prevent Hezbollah's activity as a militia, as stipulated by Security Council Resolution 1559 from 2004. Tasking UNIFIL with sensitive missions is a recipe for disaster and trouble. One striking example was when three Israel Defense Forces soldiers were kidnapped by Hezbollah from Israeli territory in October 2000. The abduction was organized not far from a UNIFIL outpost, and the UN troops watched as the three were transfered to a car with Lebanese plates that fled the scene."

The whole article is here: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/745274.html

I would like to hear your thoughts on the probability that Hezba-llah is Lebanon's version of religious fanatic neo-cons and why you are not as outspoken against them as you are against Israel.

Melissa responds:

I only have a moment..but let me just respond wuickly to one of your points..

This is not a rhetorical question -- why do you begin to say that "nothing makes sense" only once the Israeli attacks start on Lebanon?

Because, kidnapping is more of a tit for tat kind of thing...there is some twisted logic to it, in a very childish and foolish way...it is saying.."you have sopmething of mine, so I have something of yours...you want yours back, I want mine back.." (rememeber that seinfeld episode where george costanza takes a womans clock because he thinks she stole his $7000 hat).."shall we swap?"... Going to a fullscale war over a kidnapping is not logical, becauyse look at how many lives in both Israel and Lebanon have been lost over three kidnapped soldiers. Is it really worth all that? In my humble opinion, it is not. There were other roads that could have been taken..diplomatic roads..etc.

Why didn't "nothing make sense" when Lebanon, after years of peace with Israel, kidnap three Israeli soldiers?

I did...I stated IN MY BLOG that the kidnapping was idiotic. It was very weird for many reasons, but especially timing. I stated that it made NO SENSE whatsoever that hezbollah would do such a thing, especially in light of what happened in Gaza after a similar event.

Didn't they know that this would potentially start trouble?

kidnappings have occurred for years..even israel has used the tactic before, I am fairly certain..and, until now, I do not recall such tactics ever resulting in fullscale war. That said, Gaza should have been a big hint to anyone desiring to test Ohlmert 's(sp?) resolve, that they should not antagonize israel..but, hezbollah stupidly did..and Israel seemed poised and ready for a confrontation, as did hezbollah..so there you go..Chaos. Now, what about chaos should make anyone happy? Nothing.

Melissa


Yaniv responds:

Alright, you brought up some good points. Hehe, I didn't see that episode of Seinfeld, and if you can believe it I've only seen three or four episodes.

Anyway, this kidnapping is not a tit for tat measure, it is part of a larger policy to test Israel's response to being terrorized and stripped of the morale of the civlian and government population. The effect of three of your soldiers being taken, and G-d knows what is being done to them, especially when service is manadatory, can shaken a society - that's exactly what Hezba-llah wanted to do. Your mandatory service starts when you are eighteen, and if you can scare someone enough who's about to enter a new phase in life then you should do that. Government-wise it works too, it was a political tactic that's been enacted several times before to try to get Israel to put its head down and to back into diplomatic talks (as you mentioned) with terrorists, who really don't want anything but to terrorize Israel more and take more land. Nasra-llah said it himself, he didn't expect Israel to react in such a way, he thought they were going to get all mushy on him and try to make peace. I know that Israel's decision is going to be blasted as unpopular, as it already has begun, but it's the only solution.

Israel has kidnapped people before, but they were known terrorists, not "nobodies." Hezba-llah doesn't mind it when people die, either Israeli or Lebanese, because in their kind of war all Israeli casualties are fair game and all Muslims are martyrs. Hezba-llah needs to understand that it has something very, very grave and valuable to lose with war, the lives of Lebanese. The Lebanese people will keep dying until either they or Israel ousts Hezba-llah; whichever is more capable. Maybe that's why Israel didn't mind attacking the Lebanese military.

There are two main arguments critical of Israel I'm considering here. The first is one is that people (and Israel) don't want Israel to start a long and drawn out offensive in Lebanon. Even though Israel isn't America and Lebanon isn't Iraq, many Israeli's are opposed to a long return to Lebanon for their own national and historical reasons. I have a feeling that Israel is going to honor that and will not be in Lebanon for a long time. This brings us to the next criticism; people don't want Israel to bomb the crap out of Lebanon. This is my response; either Israel can have a thought out and longer stay in Lebanon, or it can really go all out with the military campaign to destroy Hezba-llah's infrastructure, which will also some with many casualties on both sides, but it will take less time and avoid a long stay. But should Israel take action in Lebanon? Absolutely. Either way, both ways will come with many deaths, but nobody told Hezba-llah to capture those soldiers. They did and this is the result and now we both have to deal with it.

From a cultural perspective, symbols are very important, and while yes, I do think that symbols should give way to practicality and reality, symbols are VERY real for Hezba-llah (and yes, for Israeli's) and if you won't be deterred from taking hostages (for no reason, as you mentioned), then you'll do more. Nasra-llah didn't think he was taking any chances when he took those soldiers, it was a bluff and Israel called it and raised him one. Now he rather run away with his tail between his legs but the whole international community (and Arab world) is looking on and he has to keep his cool and act like he's the tough guy; let's see how long he can last. Shimon Peres said basically the same thing in more diplomatic terms than I and said that Nasra-llah's bluff is beginning to weaken as Lebanon has had many casualties. If Israel continues on the same path it's taking, this should be over relatively soon, and it might even help fix/end the Hezba-llah occupation of Lebanon.

Politics aren't a game of poker, I know, but neither lives nor the quality of lives are clocks or $7,000 hats. Yaniv...