The Jew is me, Yaniv, and the Christian is Danny, a friend of mine from Tucson. Grab the popcorn, sit back, and enjoy - a modern-day debate between a Jew and a Christian for your enjoyment!
Danny said:
http://www.wayofthemasternews.com/raysmonthlycolumn.htm
I thought you would since I have seen you talk about this subject.
Love,
DannyYaniv said:
I tried to keep it short, hehe.
I too used to hold Christianity's involvement in the Holocaust against Christianity, but over the years I've learned a bit about the true essence of Christianity. I don't really bother to be angry at Christianity for its involvement anymore, now it's just its theology that keeps me away from it. What I mean is, it would be irrational for me to say that just because Christianity was so intimately related to the Holocaust and helped it occur that I should resent it forever. The truth is that Christians can repent for their involvement, this is true, any many have, but the true problem with Christianity is not its history but its theology, which is pagan. As long as that lasts there is a problem. I won't hold Christianity's involvement in the Holocaust against any Christian because they can't be held accountable.
This is the connection. Paganism/polytheism have always sought to destroy monotheism, this is probably the root cause of all (or a huge majority) of the world's problems - the tension created by the fundamental conflicts resulting from the clash of monotheism and polytheism and their respective values. The opposite is also true - monotheism seeks to destroy polytheism, but how is another topic. Theologically speaking, Christianity is not monotheism and so it too has in it buried the nagging desire to push against Judaism. The unique thing about Christianity is that it is polytheism in monotheism's outfit, and it speaks in its name. I realize that we won't agree on this, and that's fine, but how exactly was Hitler able to use Christianity to rile up the masses, many (or most? I don't know) of which were Christian, to unite against the Jews in such a fashion? Clearly, Danny, there was some overlaying hostility in Christianity towards the Jews, and Hitler just found a way to tap into that and release it. Yes, my friend, the Christians were not very happy with the Jews and Hitler manipulated their "grievances" against them, although I agree that there were many more elements to the Holocaust than just religion.
Since Hitler found a way to tap into that anger, we have to ask why it existed in the first place. As a rule of thumb, polytheistic and monotheistic religions cannot essentially get along, look at the history of the Jews and their neighbors; the Midianites, Moabites, Babylonians, Assyrians, Egyptains, Persians, Philistines, Canaanites (Amorites, Amalekites, Jebusites, Girgashites), Greeks, Romans, etc... At one time or another all of these people tried to destroy the Jews, or Israelites or Hebrews, depending on when, even when those groups recognized that "the G-d of the Hebrews" existed. Christianity was a deviation from Judaism. It eventually appealed to Gentile societies, whom were all polytheistic, and succeeded in spreading by infusing Jewish legal terms (sacrifices) with easy-to-understand pagan theologies (Divine duality, multiplicity). In other words, the religion of Christianity (regardless of its Jewish roots) became a Gentile religion, and those Gentiles, most of whom were Roman subjects and elitists, were not very far away from resenting Jews already. When Constantine rose to power and Judaism turned into a minority religion in the Roman Empire, some accounts of history explain that a huge number of Jews were killed. Considering that technology wasn't as good then, it is said that the number was basically proportionate to the number of Jews killed in Germany in the 20th century. I can try to find the source if you want. This kind of thing kept happening on and off for the next 2,000 years in Christian countries (both Catholic and Protestant) all over Europe and that trend made the Holocaust very possible. I can forgive a Christian because they are not accountable for it, and I am actually more than happy to because I don't want to live with that anger festering away at my soul. However, I am turned away from Christianity because of its paganism; if there is a connection between paganism and resenting Jews, this is definitely demonstrable throughout contemporary and Biblical (OT) history.
How your individual identity fits into Christianity is impossible for me to know.
Peace, your pal, Yaniv...
Also said by Yaniv:
Theologically speaking, Christianity is not monotheism and so it too has in it buried the nagging desire to push against Judaism. The unique thing about Christianity is that it is polytheism in monotheism's outfit, and it speaks in its name. Forget Hitler, he's dead; what should really alarm you is that your religion has internal elements of polytheism and you should ponder if that makes G-d very happy with you. This is much more sinister than any human being could ever hope to be, especially since it seems like monotheism.
All said as a pal, Yaniv...
Danny said:
Well, my thing is that I don't think people are smart enough to make up G-d being three separate entities but fully God as one being. It sounds a little like it is beyond human understanding. Also when I read the Old Testament from the first chapter and especially the profits, I get this very same understanding from them. Daniel even goes so far as to predict the exact day God will show up on earth, which happened with Christ. Also, Christ taught and magnified the Law of G-d even to the heart level, G-d sees our inward parts. Meaning G-d will judge us for our thought life as well as our actions and is mad at sin. Christ is perfect, holly and righteous. Your G-d doesn't hold everyone accountable for every, word, thought and deed.
Danny said:
Why would a demon teach humans to be good, kind and loving, focused only on G-d and not our selves? Why would a demon, teach us to be righteous and give G-d glory in all situations? No other religious book does that. All others teach work righteousness and against the Ten Commandments.
Oh and the other thing was that the Old Testament says that only G-d can tell the future and it be fulfilled. Well, Christ told the future with it coming true, a demon can not do that. He also shared wisdom which is against society and man's understanding even today. G-d in the old testament says that his wisdom is not like man's.
What I am saying is I am not concerned about what term Christ seems like, polytheism or what not. I am only concerned if my life matches up with all of scripture, weather I like what it says or not. Most of what is in the New Testament is challenging and life changing beyond the core of me. It is 90% mental and only 10% physical, it comes down to, it only matters if it is true or not.
Sorry, tried to make it short,
Danny
Yaniv said:
I'll respond to the things in order.
People are smart enough to make up anything; Communism, Socialism, Darwinism, Atheism, that religion that Tom Cruise practices, because the human mind is incredibly dynamic. That the human mind can conceptualize (to limited degrees) the wonder of G-d is dangerously close to being able to "inventing" the existence of G-d Himself. You should hear the arguments for that, which ultimately cannot stand but at least they sound sophisticated. I once heard a saying, "I wouldn't have seen it if I hadn't believed it with my own mind." The point is that you can see anything you want in the "Old Testament" whether it's actually there or not.
It would be basically pointless for us to talk about what the prophets actually meant if we hold that subjectivity is the prime factor in our decision making, which is what I'm reading from you. Most of what you're saying to me in the first paragraph doesn't seem very thought out, such as "Daniel even goes so far as to predict the exact day G-d will show up on earth, which happened with Christ." If you and I are having an intellectual discussion, you won't change the way I think about things by simply telling me something that you believe or that your Bible says. I don't believe that "G-d showed up on earth" with Christ, and I certainly don't believe that Jesus was the Messiah. You have never tried to live your life by the Law, or by a type of religious law, so your understanding of the Law of the Torah is insufficient to comment on the way it affects man. One of the most fundamental Torah lessons is to internalize the Law and to become a "pnimi," a person who is trying to condition himself with it.
As a Christian you need to believe that the Law of the Torah cannot penetrate into the heart of man and fill him with joy and devotion and compassion, because if it did, what would be the point of Christianity? If that is what you really believe then you are sadly mistaken. In other words, you need to believe that your religion provides something that Judaism doesn't, but that's not true. "My G-d" certainly does hold everybody accountable for their every sin, thought, or deed, both good and bad and everywhere in between, because He is the perfect Judge. If you have not gotten this message from reading "my Bible" then you haven't been paying attention or you've been hearing the wrong thing.
Deception needs to be deceiving if it's going to work. The people who make Coca-Cola make sure that it tastes really, really good, but it's pretty bad for you. If they made it taste as bad as it was for you, then you wouldn't even dream of drinking it. The Satan is a deceiver and it has been endowed its powers by G-d Himself and so the illusions with which it tempts humanity are incredibly effective, even on people that are equipped to deal with them. It doesn't have the powers of G-d but there is a source in the Torah (Talmud) saying that demons have the ability to create small illusory worlds. I don't know exactly what that means, but if you have ever seen a person completely lost in a certain way of life, it is as if they are indeed lost in a small world. So yes, that is the power of a demon, and it will lace a bad thing with good things so that you do not see the bad in it.
All of the religious books present their message as a positive one; why would they do otherwise? Would make it make sense to have a religion that allowed the follower to know that it was to deliberately harm people? That would not be very deceiving.
In the Tanakh we see all kinds of idol worshippers and star worshippers telling the future, and they did not do it through prophecy. The reality of the world is that they were able to tap into elements of truth through these things, but not absolute truth. There's a source in the Torah that says that when Potiphar's wife went to seduce Joseph that something else was actually going on. She had told Joseph that the stars inferred that they were to be together, and Joseph checked the stars (astrology) and found that she was right, and just as they were about to commit the deed his father Jacob appeared to him in a window (also in the stars) and told him that it was not the right way, so he stopped. Jacob himself used a form of divination when he made Lavan's sheep give birth to only speckled sheep, which he kept for himself. The way he did that was by having them look at striped pieces of wood when they were mating and then they gave birth to speckled sheep (does that make any sense to you? It was divination). The Egyptians also used loads of black magic and were actually able to simulate the things that Moses was doing through the Hand of G-d, such as turning the staff into a snake and making the water turn into blood, which is written in the text of the Torah. Bilaam, the prophet of Midian, was able to achieve a level of prophecy as well through very questionable means, which the Torah explains was through having relations with his donkey, which the text specifically mentions was a "she-donkey." The Torah has a commandment not to communicate with the dead and not to partake in the rituals of the pagan nations. But why not? If their gods aren't real then why does it matter? The answer is that their gods aren't real but that their rituals worked because G-d made the world with those things accessible. However, He also intended for those things to be off limits to humanity and so He commanded us not to do them. Only the wisest and most discerning people who are thoroughly steeped in Torah study and living should touch on those things because only they will use them for the right purposes and the right way.
The core religious experience provided by every single religion in the whole world is that it provides the follower with the ability to reach something outside of himself. However, being taken outside of our core is not how we measure the truth of a religion because every single religion in the world is designed to take a person out of himself. So does music, sex, drugs, and even violence, which explains why people speak about those things in spiritual terms (and why, to a degree, religion utilizes these things for spirituality). Again, I can't make judgments on your personal spiritual experiences, but all I can say is that everybody is capable of spirituality and that in and of itself is not self-validating.
I also tried to make it short. Peace, Yaniv...
Danny said:
Well, my thing is that I don't think people are smart enough to make up G-d being three separate entities but fully God as one being. It sounds a little like it is beyond human understanding. Also when I read the Old Testament from the first chapter and especially the profits, I get this very same understanding from them. Daniel even goes so far as to predict the exact day God will show up on earth, which happened with Christ. Also, Christ taught and magnified the Law of G-d even to the heart level, G-d sees our inward parts. Meaning G-d will judge us for our thought life as well as our actions and is mad at sin. Christ is perfect, holly and righteous. Your G-d doesn't hold everyone accountable for every, word, thought and deed.
Dan A. orginally said:
"My personal belief, not an argument, is that people are still not intelligent enough to understand that concept of G-d that Jesus describes and what I feel the profits also described. That would be consistent with it being written that God choose the foolish things to confound the wise. God resist the proud and has chosen foolish things to confuse the wise. Pr 3:34, Isa 29:14"
Yaniv responded:
"I read Proverbs 3:34, and mine reads "If {one is drawn] to the scoffers, he will scoff, but [if one is drawn] to the humble, he will find favor." Maybe our translations are a bit different, but I'm trying to connect this verse with our topic and I can't really see how they connect with each other. However, Proverbs 3:1 seems to connect pretty well to the conversation. "My child, do not forget the Torah, and let your heart guard My commandments, for they add to you length of days and years of life and peace. Kindness and truth will not forsake you. Bind them upon your neck; inscribe them on the tablet of your heart, and you will find favor and goodly wisdom in the eyes of G-d and man." I scanned through the next couple of Proverbs and all I found was a constant reference to the wisdom of the Torah and the call to keep it. Proverbs 7:1-2 is especially telling, "My child, heed my words and store up my commandments with yourself. Heed my commandments and live, and [heed] my Torah as the apple of your eyes." G-d speaking to the Jews as "My child" is exactly what I was talking about when the "Father Son" analogy is filled between G-d and the Jewish People, and to a degree the Gentiles as well.
As for as Isaiah 29:14, I agree fully. Isaiah was very big on castigating the Jews based on their insincere sacrificial offerings , their idolatry, and just plain out acts of immorality and treachery. He also rails the surrounding nations and tells them that they're going down too, and tells them when they're doing the right thing. Back to the Jews, check out Isaiah 11, to the Jews, whom he refers to as "people of Gomorrah," "Why do I need your numerous sacrifices? says Hashem." Good place to stop, but the next verse says, "I am sated with elevation-offerings of rams and the fat of fatlings; the blood of bulls, sheep, and goats I do not desire. When you come to appear before Me,who sought this from your hand, to trample My courtyards. Bring your worthless meal-offering to Me no longer, it is incense of abomination to Me." Notice, G-d tells Isaiah "I am sated with elevation offerings of rams and the fat of fatlings," -- G-d was satisfied with the genuine offerings, which took away sin, but deplored the bulls, sheep, and goats, because it had apparently become a trend to bring countless sacrifices that were not genuine, and G-d was interested in genuine service to Him. Also, it seems that G-d was more satisfied with the minimum sacrifices done genuinely than with the larger sacrifices, when brought in the proper spirit, sanctified G-d's Name. The problem is that people were bringing them improperly, to bribe G-d, as it were, and this enraged G-d. Skip back real quick to Exodus 29:38, where G-d commands Aaron to bring the continual offering. "This is what you shall offer upon the Altar: two sheep within their first year every day, continually. You shall offer the one sheep in the morning, and the second sheep shall you offer in the afternoon; and a tenth-ephah of fine flour mixed with a quarter-hin of beaten oil, and a libation of wine for each sheep." Turns out that the Jews had forgotten how to do it the proper way, and G-d sent Isaiah to warn and remind them.
Here's the part I really wanted to emphasize, in Isaiah 29:14, when G-d says, "Bring your worthless meal-offering to Me no longer, it is incense of abomination to Me," contrast this with Exodus 29:41, in which G-d describes the proper sacrificial meal-offering, "You sh all offer the second sheep in the afternoon, like the meal-offering of the morning and its libation you shall offer for it, for a satisfying aroma, a fire-offering to Hashem; as a continual burnt-offering for your generations, at the entrance of the Tent of Meeting, before Hashem; where I shall set My meeting with you to speak to you there." To break it down even more, the contrast is between "it is incense of abomination to Me," and "for a satisfying aroma..."
If you read on in Isaiah 29:14, those verses G-d also deplores the New Moon and "appointed times," i.e., other holidays, because the Jews were getting carried away with proper ritual and slacking in proper ethics and morality towards their fellow man; see Isaiah 16, "Wash yourselves, purify yourselves, remove the evil of your deeds from before My eyes; cease doing evil. Learn to do good,s eek justice, vindicate the victim, render justice to the orphan, take up the grievance of the widow." Ultimately, Isaiah 29:14 speaks against the corruption of the Law (Isaiah 29:13 - ---their fear of Me is like rote learning of human commands ---), but even, and especially he understood that there was a proper version of the Law, to which he alludes throughout the entire Book. Your own misreading of the verse has to do with your reading that the "human commands" to which he refers are the commandments that G-d gave, but a different reading into the text suggests something entirely more consistent with Torah and Judaism. That settles it, there is a Jewish way and a Christian way to view these things, but the Jewish way, in which we still keep the commandments, is a far cry more consistent with Isaiah's charges than is Christianity. There is no way to apply Isaiah's charges to Christianity, but there is definitely a way to apply it to Judaism, at least in theory when the Temple is not standing.
Dan A. orginally said:
"When you look at Mithraism, Attis, Krishna, and Horus stories, it's like comparing apples to oranges. Sure there are similarities but they are not the same story. Just read the stories themselves not the comparisons. You will not be able to put them together like I have seen authors do.
All accounts of gods share a common denominator when you look at the actual stories of their legacies. They were always conquerors that slew down their enemies in heroic super human fashions. And many times they did not die. In stories that god's did die, it was in a glorious destructive super human fashion. They usually were fighting, showing further that they were gods and not men. The stories would not show any kind of weakness to their god, they showed them served by men, and they could not be hurt by men."
Yaniv responded:
"It seems to me that in the End of Days, the Christian version, that Jesus and Satan "have it out" in a war for humanity, as is explained in Revelations (of which I am no expert what-so-ever). What you get is a serious war of duality between good and evil, which Judaism believes in as well, but the difference is that Revelations explains it as a literal battle of sorts where all kinds of physical emanations of both good and evil (Jesus and Satan) expresses themselves (the red moon, the wife in white, the four horsemen, etc...) and then something about the very ominous and physical "mark of the beast," another physical thing. At best, without sounding insulting, it's a bit reminiscent of a comic book where the good guys and bad guys meet in one final showdown for turf, and of course the good guys win. I give it to you, it's a bit more sophisticated than the all-out pagan "versions" from earlier times, but I think that the Christians, who at least felt themselves to be monotheists, rejected much of the imagery of pagan antiquity from their works. Nevertheless, they didn't do the job quite as good as they should have for monotheists. What I mean is, it was a valiant effort and I even respect them a little bit (from my comfortable seat in 2007), but to me it shows that Revelations was a human work based on a humanly-established religion with a human Trinity, which is not very far in its roots from that same pagan antiquity.
Dan A. originally said:
"You can see then why Jesus was different. He was the Prince of Peace not war, he came to serve others and not to be served to, he was humble enough to wash others feet, and was willing to surrounded himself with those scorned by society. He also was willing to die in a shameful, dishonored fashion for the glory of His Father. There was really no way to make Christ up because people did not see any of his qualities, before him, as God like features."
Yaniv responded:
"I object only to the last part. Surely his anger, judgment, knowledge of the Law and authority of the Law, not to mention his kindness, compassion, and ability to tell the future and perform miracles, and of course his immortality, were elements of his being due to being G-d. All in all, from a narrative perspective, even from a Jewish narrative perspective, Jesus is the kinder, gentler, sweeter emanation of G-d. However, it's pagan and not Jewish because while there are a few canonical Jewish narratives about a physical G-d (the Song at the Sea calls G-d a "Man of War" and other texts talk about G-d in physical terms), there is no place anywhere in (canonical) Jewish thought where G-d has a literal physical body and is found walking around and talking with people. The fact that the Jews did not include any of the Christian works (the original first few of which had Jewish authors) in the Tanakh, other than the politics of religion, is the same reason that the Book of Baruch (I don't know what it's called), and others, are not included in the Tanakh's canon - they were deemed, and were in fact, heretical texts. Yours just has the pleasure of becoming a religion unto its own.
Yaniv originally said:
It would be basically pointless for us to talk about what the prophets actually meant if we hold that subjectivity is the prime factor in our decision making, which is what I'm reading from you. Most of what you're saying to me in the first paragraph doesn't seem very thought out, such as "Daniel even goes so far as to predict the exact day G-d will show up on earth, which happened with Christ." If you and I are having an intellectual discussion, you won't change the way I think about things by simply telling me something that you believe or that your Bible says. I don't believe that "G-d showed up on earth" with Christ, and I certainly don't believe that Jesus was the Messiah.
Dan A. originally said:
Again, it doesn't matter what I believe it only matters if the Bible says it or not, meaning that it is true or not. Since you say it is all subjective then that means you can't tell me that it doesn't say that, so I could be right. Every time I back something up with Scripture though you tell me that it doesn't really say what I read so, what is the point? I have shown you in the book of Daniel before where he predicts to the day when G-d will show up. You basically told me it is not saying that, it is a big coincidence that it mathematically works out right? Daniel 9:25-26
Yaniv responded:
I didn't say that the Torah is subjective, I said that your readings of the Torah were subjective and therefore we would go back and forth talking about what we think they mean, and that would get us nowhere. Alright, but you point was made. I'm going to save this one for a bit later because it's late at night and I don't want to do any math right now.
Yaniv originally said:
You have never tried to live your life by the Law, or by a type of religious law, so your understanding of the Law of the Torah is insufficient to comment on the way it affects man. One of the most fundamental Torah lessons is to internalize the Law and to become a "pnimi," a person who is trying to condition himself with it.
As a Christian you need to believe that the Law of the Torah cannot penetrate into the heart of man and fill him with joy and devotion and compassion, because if it did, what would be the point of Christianity? If that is what you really believe then you are sadly mistaken. In other words, you need to believe that your religion provides something that Judaism doesn't, but that's not true. "My G-d" certainly does hold everybody accountable for their every sin, thought, or deed, both good and bad and everywhere in between, because He is the perfect Judge. If you have not gotten this message from reading "my Bible" then you haven't been paying attention or you've been hearing the wrong thing.
Dan A originally said:
That is what Christ was all about helping people do, internalize the Law, Ten Commandments specifically. I know what the Bible says but you say something different. You say as long as people follow I guess the Law of Noah, you are fine. Well, it says that no one has followed the law. Well, then we are all in big trouble. You say yes we have followed the law but that is not what the Bible says. You also say if we have broken the law then with prayer we would be forgiven. That is not what the Bible says. It says that a sacrifice needs to be made to cover sin, not the forgiveness of it. You say there is no need for a sacrifice because the Temple is gone. A sacrifice was required before the Temple and so a sacrifice is required when there is no Temple. Also G-d says that he only hears the prayers of the priests that offer scarifies, to atone for sin. So, prayer from individuals is no good, where are your priests that offer the sin offerings?
Yaniv responded:
But Danny, the Law is 613 commandments, not ten, although the Ten Commandments make up an essential bulk of the spirit of the Torah. Where does "it" say that no one has followed the law (of Noah, I guess)? I would agree that the Gentiles are in trouble for not following the Law of Noah, as in much trouble as the Jews are for not following the Law of Moses. You also don't believe in the existence of an Oral Law, which I have shown you exists, so of course you are not seeing the Law of Noah listed in the Torah. Actually, the Torah does say that prayer can lead to forgiveness. It's in Hosea and recited in the prayer service in the morning, saying, "May You forgive all iniquity and accept good [intentions], and let our lips substitute for bulls." (Hosea 14:3) Hosea was a book written over a period of 300 years, according to what I read, and was written b y many people. Hosea himself was a contemporary of Isaiah according to the Sages (the Oral tradition). Correction, there IS a need for sacrifice even though the Temple is gone, because G-d has not abolished that system permanently - it's an eternal system, that's the biggest key about all of this. Initially, before the Temple was built and Jews were bringing sacrifices in the Tent of Meeting, a sacrifice was brought simultaneously with repentance. Numbers 15:25 explains this, "The Kohen shall atone for the entire assembly of the Children of Israel and it shall be forgiven them," so you're right, but we are living in a post-Temple time where even if we wanted to bring sacrifices we couldn't. Therefore, G-d accepts atonement from us in a different way until that time has been returned to us because He wouldn't let us go without a way to atone.
Dan A. originally said:
The Law is justice so that doesn't mean you can just apologize or do some good things to make up for breaking the law. If you are in court and a judge is going to sentence you then nothing you can do can make up for it. You can not do a bunch of good things because the Judge would not be upholding justice if he lets you bribe him with good works or apologies. Therefore God will give everyone justice that has broken his laws. Not everyone receives justice on this earth so his justice must be after we die. Psalm 55:15
Yaniv responded:
I haven't looked at the verse yet, but I agree. Okay, now I'm looking at the verse. It says, "together we would take sweet counsel; in the House of G-d we would walk in company." The later verses have to do with death and going down to the grave. I've dabbled in the Psalms and much of the time David is not always referring to the Law, per se, sometimes he's referring to generally good and evil behavior, such as that of his enemies, who we know were from the House of Israel, i.e., often people that wanted to take him down. However, you're still not exactly right because G-d takes into account the intent of man during their judgment and considers it before sealing them. True, you cannot apologize during your judgment, but you have a whole life ahead of you to do that and to do repentance and you don't need to wait until then.
Yaniv originally said:
Deception needs to be deceiving if it's going to work. The people who make Coca-Cola make sure that it tastes really, really good, but it's pretty bad for you. If they made it taste as bad as it was for you, then you wouldn't even dream of drinking it. The Satan is a deceiver and it has been endowed its powers by G-d Himself and so the illusions with which it tempts humanity are incredibly effective, even on people that are equipped to deal with them. It doesn't have the powers of G-d but there is a source in the Torah (Talmud) saying that demons have the ability to create small illusory worlds. I don't know exactly what that means, but if you have ever seen a person completely lost in a certain way of life, it is as if they are indeed lost in a small world. So yes, that is the power of a demon, and it will lace a bad thing with good things so that you do not see the bad in it.
Dan A. originally said:
Well then you would confuse every good work of G-d as Satan’s. That is why the Bible tells you what is of God and what is of Satan. That is why you study the word to know the difference. That is why a Profit had to profess the future %100 or he was killed. And if a house is divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand. (Mark 3:25)
Yaniv responded:
Just because Satan creates illusions, which is his job, it doesn't mean that a person is hopeless for the truth. Every good work being confused as G-d's when it is really Satan's applies to you too. G-d has told us the truth with the Torah so a person who follows the Torah need not fear. "Hashem said to the Satan, 'Hashem shall denounce you, O Satan, and Hashem, Who selects Jerusalem, shall denounce you again. This is indeed a firebrand rescue from flames." (Zechariah 3:2)
Yaniv originally said:
All of the religious books present their message as a positive one; why would they do otherwise? Would make it make sense to have a religion that allowed the follower to know that it was to deliberately harm people? That would not be very deceiving.
Dan A. originally said:
Yes, but other religion's doctrine always calls evil good and good evil. Isaiah 5:20 They also describe God in a different way than what has been reviled in scripture. Job 37-42 It describes how high G-d is mighty and high and how low and horrid we are. His perfection is majestic and we are low and detestable. We are to be servants to the most High not the other way around.
Yaniv responded:
Isaiah is referring to corruption within the Jewish People, because Isaiah 5:19 says, "Those who say, 'Let Him hurry, let Him hasten His actions, so that we may see it; let the plan of the Holy One of Israel approach and take place, so that we may know it.'" I think you can still apply what Isaiah said there to actual idolatry in general, for sure, but it's not the jist of the text. This is one reason I am Jewish. Your reading of those verses of Job are expressive of the misery contained in Christianity theology; where in the world do you get from those verses that we are "low and detestable?!" Rather, G-D IS HIGH! Even the best of us, as high as we are (and there are some amazing holy people in this world) are lower than G-d, because HE IS THE HIGHEST! Unfortunately, this is how you read the message of Job because Christianity encourages a miserable and lowly view of the human being, which is the ANATHEMA to the way G-d desires us to view ourselves. I can't help but to be depressed by your view via Job. Job is uplifting explaining to us that G-d is so great that His most basic inventions are entirely mysterious and confounding to us. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is not a reason to be lowly and depressed but a reason to rejoice; G-d's perfection is majestic, but we are also His creatures and so we are low, but majestic too, and not in the least detestable! And HORRID!? What a word to use on the apple of G-d's eyes! It says in the Torah about the commandments, "You shall live by them and not die by them," we should also live by the glory of G-d and not die by it. Servants to a King Who loves us, now Who believes that we are horrid mongrels, even if we sometimes, maybe often, act like it.
Dan A. originally said:
So, scripture is my standard to know what is true and what is false. First I look at the Torah and Profits, and then I look to see if it says that there is more for us to know. It says he will reveal more info to us. Only 400 years passed since the New Testament. Malachi says in chapter 3 that G-d will come. Jeremiah 31:31 So, then I look to the New Testament to see if that matches up to what is predicted because that too claims to be the word of G-d. If it matches up, then I see if there are going to be anything more for me to know in the future after that. The New Testament says, NO! I do not have to look any further now for more info that God will be sharing.
Yaniv responded:
Jeremiah 31:31 does not fall on deaf ears. Read on, "Thus said Hashem, Who gives the sun as a light by day and the laws of the moon and the stars by night; Who agitates the sea s that its waves roar; Hashem, Master of Legions, is His Name: If these laws could be removed from before Me - the word of Hashem - so could the seed of Israel cease from being a people before Me forever. Thus said Hashem: If the heavens above could be measured or the foundations of the earth plumbed below, so too would I reject the entire seed of Israel because of everything they did - the word of Hashem." (Jeremiah 31:34-36) Just as the laws of nature are established and unchanging, so does G-d keep the Law alive and unchanging all the time, forever. The LAW my friend, the LAW. Which Law? Perhaps is it the Law that I keep? Our people-hood is based on the existence of the Law; they are basically synonymous - "the word of Hashem."
Yaniv originally said:
The core religious experience provided by every single religion in the whole world is that it provides the follower with the ability to reach something outside of himself. However, being taken outside of our core is not how we measure the truth of a religion because every single religion in the world is designed to take a person out of himself. So does music, sex, drugs, and even violence, which explains why people speak about those things in spiritual terms (and why, to a degree, religion utilizes these things for spirituality). Again, I can't make judgments on your personal spiritual experiences, but all I can say is that everybody is capable of spirituality and that in and of itself is not self-validating.
Dan A. originally said:
That is great but I was not talking about a feeling. The Bible says our feelings are wicked and deceitful, so I would not go on feelings. I am talking about the challenge of being perfect as G-d is perfect. It is completely challenging, there is a peace because I am no longer an enemy of G-d but am now one of his children reconciled to him. It is not a trance like state, it is where your mind is engaged and focused on God’s word. You also have a consistent experience of dieing to ones self and letting God lead you away from your nature of wanting to do to what is against God. You continue to give up your will for his. John 3:3
Yaniv responded:
Yes, I can agree with the part about dying to one's self and letting G-d lead you away from your nature of wanting to do what is against G-d. It seems that the way most religions understand return to G-d is very, very similar, the "born again" sentiment, which I definitely had. However, if there IS a difference between Judaism and Christianity with respect to this, I would say that it is that Judaism, via the Torah, doesn't view humanity as a miserable wretch of a being due to the fall of Adam and Eve and original sin, because G-d "is a jealous G-d, Who visits the sin of fathers upon children to the third and fourth generations, for My enemies; but Who shows kindness for thousands [of generations] to those who love Me and observe My commandments." (Exodus 20:5-6)." We are not trying to get G-d to forgive us for the sin of Adam and Eve, because we are not liable for their sin. Rather, we are liable for our OWN sins and it is to THOSE sins which G-d holds us accountable. That's why you need Jesus and I don't, because G-d holds me accountable for my sins and helps me stop doing them and forgives me for them when I am genuinely interested in being forgiven. "Hashem, Hashem, G-d, Compassionate and Gracious, Slow to Anger, and Abundant in Kindness and Truth; Preserver of Kindness for thousands of generations, Forgiver of Iniquity, Willfull Sin, and Error, and Who Cleanses..." (Exodus 34:6). "Hashem is close to all who call upon Him - to all who call upon Him sincerely." (from Psalm 145, all of which is very good and is a daily prayer in the service).
To Yaniv (from the response to previous e-mail):
All your wisdom is the wisdom of the world. You don't back up any thing you say against scripture so I don't know how you expect me to take you seriously. The Lord's word should be the standard for all that you hold true, not doctrines taught by men. I know you do not believe the Messiah is Yahuâshuah Hamashiach the anointed one. (Romans 1:18) It doesn't come down to what you believe it comes down to if it is true or not. Christ said that he was the way the truth and the light, no one comes to the father except by him. That means he was either correct, a liar, stupid or crazy. (John 14:6) I have found that he is true now as he has always been. I know for sure that he is still alive, he is well right now. I also know that death could not hold him because he was the very essence on earth of the Most High. Who but God can give life and have dominion over death?
Your depiction of the Jewish people is not the depiction set in the Bible either. First there is Deuteronomy 9:6-29, Jeremiah 7-8, Ezekiel 16. G-d's word shows how rotten the Jewish people are and how his anger burns against them. God no longer hears your prayers or accepts your sacrifices. It shows how detestable Jewish people are for doing wrong against God. Yet all I hear from Jewish people is how great they are. How happy God is with their righteous deeds and pure culture that is following G-d's laws. I hear something different from Christians. I hear how detestable we are, how we are perverse enemies of God. How even though we are horrid in the sight of God he choose to save us anyway. That matches up with scripture, before and after Christ. Acts 7, Romans 3
Quoting Dan, "Your depiction of the Jewish people is not the depiction set in the Bible either."
Neither is yours.
Danny, don't complain how horrid, detestable, and preverse Christianity says you are; I have nothing to do with what Christianity says! And who said that He chose to save you anyway? And it doens't match up with Scripture because G-d isn't levelling anywhere near the majority of criticisms towards you, but towards the Jewish People.
Dan A. said:
The message of the Bible is the same in Old Testament as it is in the New Testament. What I see the Jewish people do is change it to meet their own purposes. In fact that is why I do not say it is the same G-d at all that you worship. You worship a God that serves you and not a God that is to be served.
Yaniv responded:
Right, which is why we live the way we live. Surely it is a self-serving life! An Orthodox Jew's life is a life of dedication to G-d every step of the way that puts G-d's Will before his own. You can't get off easy telling me that the Jewish people changed the Law, or the Spirit of the Law, or whatever, in order to meet our purposes anymore than you can say that the Christians actually changed the text and the original meaning. Who was here first, the Jews or the Christians? So who changed the original? This particular argument that you made sounds a bit like the Muslim one.
"You worship a G-d that serves you and not a G-d that is to be served." All you know about Jewish living and the Jewish people is through Christian propaganda. The other part you "know" due to an internal fear that perhaps we are living the right way and so that way of life has to be devalited in order to make room for Christianity. It's okay, Danny, it's not your fault, it's a 2,000 year-old tradition and it's how Christianity began. The way a religion begins is the way it stays forever. This is true for Islam and for Christianity, which will always want to push up against Judaism. It's also true for Judaism, which began with revelation. You mistake continued revelation to be corruption, and there is room to see some truth in that, at least theoretically, but Christianity is definitely not continued revelation, and neither is Islam.
It is Christianity's god that serves them to its death, not Judaism's. It is Christianity's god that gives a knowing wink over at his followers saying, "Don't worry, I gotcha covered." It is Judaism's G-d that demands life and not death, and does not die Himself, as the liturgy says, "He has no body and no image of a body." It is Judaism's G-d that demands us to toil for our redemption and forgiveness and Who helps us accomplish these things, whether we know it or not or believe in Him or not. It is Christians who stand over their god as did Pharaoh over the Nile, expecting it to serve him.
Dan A. said:
The G-d of the Bible speaks about how he is Holly and perfect. His perfection was laid before us before the law and humans sinned against him. Then he gave his law written by his own finger. The Ten Commandments outlines his perfection, Moses says do not add anything to this because it is enough but scholars did and that is why the Talmud exists as disobedience to G-d. (Deuteronomy 4:2) G-d warns that if you lie, steal, blaspheme, covet, worship a god that you make up that suits you, disobey your parents, have anger or murder, have lustful thoughts or commit adultery, you will be judged and punished by God. (Psalm 1:6) That is why with great trembling we should cry out to him to save us from his wrath and unquenchable fire. He also says Isaiah 8:14 that G-d has put a stumbling block before the Jewish people and that is why your wisdom is darkened and you do not except the truth. Only G-d himself can save us from himself and his punishment. That is why Jesus came because only he can save us from himself, so that he receives all the glory and not us. We can do nothing to evade G-d because he knows everything and is everywhere. There is no way to hide from him and his justice. He will judge even our thoughts. Jewish people consistently say they follow the law and that they have not broken it but the bible says Psalm 14:1-3. It does not exclude Jews from this truth. I say this to Christians too! If a so called Christian says that they are good or that they have anything to offer God though their deeds then let them be dammed because no one is good and it is only though G-d's mercy and grace do we have any hope. God gets all the glory not though anything that we do to glorify ourselves.
Yaniv responded:
"He shall be a sanctuary, but also a striking stone and a stumbling rock, for the two houses of Israel; a trap and a snare for the inhabitants of Jerusalem." Isaiah 8:14. Christian readings of Jewish texts give the most backward, despondent, and dispicable readings, and not to mention hateful. It's okay, we'll continue to ignore this type of thing.
Dan A. originally said:
If Christ is false then all Christians are in trouble because we would have worshiped a false G-d that is not the almighty one. G-d's anger would burn against us and we will be destroyed. If the Jew is right the same thing will happen to them because like Isaiah 53 describes no one has taken the punishment that we deserve. There is only one God and why would he not save us from his wrath? Why would he not warn us and set his standard before us, not just to the Jews? Maybe G-d is not justice because he forgives without payment for sin but that is not the G-d of the Bible. There is only one G-d and why would the Devil command us to read and know G-d's word as Jesus does? Why would he command us to be wise and research all things? Jesus alone has brought G-d's truth and light to every nation, to follow his commands. That is what G-d wanted from the Jews but it did not happen because of disobedience.
Yaniv responded:
Yes, we are a stiff-necked people, that much is true! Of course, to hear all this from a Christian, who is just as stiff-necked in his idolatry as a Jew is in his faithlessness, well, makes some sort of sense. Hear what Isaiah has to say to you, "Come close, O nations, to hear, and regimes be attentive; let the earth and its fullness hear, the world and all its offspring. For Hashem has a fury against all the nations and a wrath against all their legions; He has destroyed them, He has delivered them to the slaughter. Their slain will be thrown aside and their corpses will bring up stench; the mountains will melt from their blood. All the host of the heavens will dissolve and the heavens will be rolled up like a scroll; all their host will shrivel as a leaf of grapevine shrivels and like a shriveled leaf of a fig tree. For my sword has been sated in the heavens; behold, it shall descend upon Edom and for judgment upon the people of My destruction. The sword of Hashem is full of blood, greased with fat, with the blood of fatted sheep and he-goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams; for Hashem is making a sacrifice at Bozrah and a great slaughter in the land of Edom. The wild oxen will go down [to the slaughter] with them, and bulls and fatted bulls; their land will be sated with blood and their soil enriched with fat. For it is a day of vengeance for Hashem; a day of retribution for the grievance of Zion."
Edom is Rome, and what survives of Rome today? G-d had a message for your own stiff-necked people!
Dan A. originally said:
The Septuagint Helps Us Understand the Hebrew Texts
Much is often made of the word for "virgin" in Isaiah 7:14
("The Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son."). Some have contended that the Hebrew word translated "virgin" -almah - simply means "young women." This indeed is one of the possible meanings of the Hebrew. However, in the Septuagint the word clearly indicates the Jewish scholarly opinion before the time of Jesus. The Greek word is parthenos (also used in Matthew 1:23), which very specifically means "virgin."
Yaniv responded:
Interesting, I'll have to check into that. All I can say before I do that is I am sure that these esteemed scholars, if they were religious, had no qualms about what the text actually meant from a theological perspective. I feel that Jewish translators, even religious, have been skittish, in the event that "almah" means "virgin," about actually writing that definition because they don't want to create an impression from a Jewish translation that Christianity is true. It's much easier just to have the text say something else if we already know what the truth is. Still, I speak Hebrew and have always learned that the word for (female) virgin is "betulah," and for a male, "batul." It shares a root with the word "betul," which means "nullified" or "devalidated," which probably is a reference to a person's marital status (because virginity was ideally lost on the night of marriage).
Dan A. said:
You can use what ever you want on your Blog, I just plead with you do not do a chop job!
Lots of Love,
Danny
Yaniv responded:
Don't worry, I won't. Peace, Yaniv...
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